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CAT D7E Electric Drive Dozer

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Looking forward.

Hi, Pushblock.
I'm looking forward to it too. I think it was Lashlander who said the he had worked over in Russia with a Russian guy who operated a Russian-built diesel-electric drive dozer that ackshully performed quite well. Now if the Russkies can do it,.................

And we KNOW that diesel-electric dump trucks have been doing quite well for years. It's only a matter of gearing to get it down to dozer-type speeds. Electric and diesel-electric locomotives have been doing it forever but that fact apparently didn't sit well with the agenda being pushed by the gentleman in question so he didn't mention them, other than to enquire about the cost of re-building a traction motor.

Then there have been the 'kings' of volume earthmoving, the face and stripping shovels and the big draglines, almost all full electric. They apparently didn't fit in with his agenda either so they got the same treatment.

I was a little surprised by the respnse from OzDozer over on the ACME board when he rubbished the concept. For me, I'm interested but I'm also in 'wait-n-see' mode.
 

Partsdude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
77
Location
Canada eh?
Never a boring day on these forums. :)

Dozer575 - What you are referring to is called "KOMTRAX" and it is standard on many Komatsu machines. It has the ability to geo fence, meaning that if you set up the parameters with your pc/laptop using gps coordinates, your machine will not start if it is moved out of the described area. Individual states cannot limit what machines operate in their states as they do not have access to the KOMTRAX system, only the registered owner has that access. And as far as the dealership or bank shutting down your machine for non payment, that will only happen in really extreme cases. Go ask a lawyer about what is involved in that process .....

As far as electric dozers go - I hope Cat does well with them, the push power should be incredible, and all with potentially lowered emissions to boot. What's not to like?

(and yes I am indirectly paid by Komatsu)
 
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grunk36

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Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
166
Location
denmark
Occupation
trainer/technical support with TRIMBLE/SITECH denm
has anyone of you american guys any idea of when the electric D7E comes on the market?? i have heard they are testing it in usa running on about 3000 hours now and when it hits 6000 hours it should be ready and after that they might make the 6 size the same
 

Aussie Nick

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Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Melbourne...Australia
I would like eray , given the engineering background, or any other member with the relevant knowledge to indicate whether there is a role for Hydrogen to play in the new generation of machines to come.
I think those of us who continue to believe that the status quo, with fossil fuel as the main power source for the propulsion of any wheeled machine or vehicle is kidding themselves.
There is no question that the oil has a very limited life span.
A. It is running out.
B. All of the major economies will be carbon trading by one method or another sooner than later to avoid cataclysmic climate change which has already commenced without a shadow of a doubt.
I know that BMW has for the last ten years been experimenting with Hydrogen as the main fuel source for vehicle propulsion. I am wondering whether any other member has any further information which might be of assistance.
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Hydrogen as a fuel.

Hi, Aussie Nick.
Like you, I have heard of a fair bit research with the use of hydrogen as a fuel. From what I can gather, there is little problem with its potential as a fuel. Generating it in big quantities is proving a little difficult, especially in a mobile ituation such as in a vehicle, although much progress has been made in this area too.

The real snag with hydrogen is safe storage and transport as it is highly volatile and extremely disruptive if it explodes. That is why any form of containers with aqueous liquid in them are banned from aluminium smelters and some other similar places. Such containers, if dropped into the melt, can sink into the molten metal before the liquid in the container gets hot enough to turn to steam. When it does turn to steam, often after the container itself has melted, it can result in a steam explosion. This is usually followed immediately by a hydrogen explosion as the oxygen and hydrogen in the liquid are separated and the heat of the melt triggers the hydrogen.

As I understand it, that is what happened to the Simsmetal plant in Melbourne about 20 years ago when it was blown apart with some loss of life. I've also been told that that was the cause of the Hindenburg airship disaster. Most current airships use helium to inflate the air vessel as it is much more stable.

I also will be watching future developments.
 
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nextdoor

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Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
128
Location
Eastern Wheatbelt Western Australia
Occupation
Farming and playing in the dirt
Hi all , I was reading the local farm rag the other day and it had a story on a forklift in the states (I think in the US forces but dont quote me) that ran on hydrogen. It used 0.75 litres per our of water to make the hydrogen and that was it. I cant find the paper to quote all the particulars but it was in the farm weekly (formerly Elders weekly) and sounded very interesting. Maybe you guys in the US would know more?
 

Aussie Nick

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Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Melbourne...Australia
I am glad to see the Aussies so steamed up about hydrogen (pardon the pun). I was hoping we would have some input from some of our non-indigenous members.
 

grunk36

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Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
166
Location
denmark
Occupation
trainer/technical support with TRIMBLE/SITECH denm
sorry but what has hydrogen fuel got to do with the D7E electric?????:Banghead:Banghead:beatsme:beatsme
 

DPete

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
1,677
Location
Central Ca.
sorry but what has hydrogen fuel got to do with the D7E electric?????:Banghead:Banghead:beatsme:beatsme
The point is that the electric drive could possibly be powered by something other than a diesel engine. If the right power plant was developed to turn the alternator it could eleminate the diesel. Kinda thinking out of the box. How about a nice little reactor? Feed it a couple little uranium pills and you're good to go for 20 years
 
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Aussie Nick

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Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Melbourne...Australia
I was hoping that there would be a direct Hydrogen power plant replacing the Diesel motor.
Grunk The point of the discussion is that the oil is terminal ....... very shortly, hence the diversion to alternative power plants such as electric motors and others including hydrogen.
Hydrogen does not need to be extracted from coal or oil . Just turn on your tap and you will extract plenty of it. Every time you take a shower you are using Hydrogen.
Water is made up of two hydrogen atoms and one of oxygen.The pollution factor when hydrogen is used in a combustion process in the atmosphere is close to zero as the byproduct from that process is water or H2O.
The problem is extracting the Hydrogen from the water which means separating out the Oxygen atoms which requires energy.
The other problem I can see in burning Hydrogen in a piston engine is that after ignition the piston chamber is full of water .So how does that affect the lubrication of the piston rings?
 

grunk36

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Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
166
Location
denmark
Occupation
trainer/technical support with TRIMBLE/SITECH denm
ahhhh now i saw the light ha ha i think its a fantastic idea you make that dozer then i will drive it:usa;)
 

95zIV

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
795
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Occupation
RR Contractor Super.

You watch tv, listen to the radio.

All that article says is it's a theory, so why not still try to develop other more efficient, less harmful ways to get around? Maybe I missed the point but if hydrogen can be used as a fuel why not? It sounds to me that you're just another bobcat ron who unless they have a use for it or even like it then it must be junk or just not worth bothering with. Why don't you try to be at least a bit positive?
 
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Dozer575

Banned
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Mar 2, 2007
Messages
274
Location
Seattle, wa
Occupation
Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
So is the global warming and climate change all a THEORY. Except it is more an up and comming religion that is going to remove all your libertys, and cost ya a bunch of new taxes. Do we ever have a day when it is not mentioned in the news media?
CO2 tax is a commin.
I read in the Wallstreet Journal today, how there is talk about bringing the good old 55 speed limit back. When we are stuck to that, I'm sure those fuel guzzling Jets will still be pumping out the tons of polllutants they do everyday, and sucking the fuel at so many tons per hour. The whole of this enviro movement is to remove your and my toys, not the ones of the big boys.
 

Aussie Nick

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Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Melbourne...Australia
If Climate change is a theory come over here and look at the rivers Murray and Darling.
It was 19 degrees Celsius (65F) here in Melbourne in the Middle of Winter the other day. No mate that ain't no theory
 

trackfanatic

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Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Australia
thinking outside the square

Diesel electric should work well in a dozer, for the same reason it works well in face shovels, trains, shipping, and submarines. I have some familiarity with the shipping systems. In them D/E gives high torque power at the most efficient engine speed, the ele then being used to spin the prop. The most common usage of D/E in shipping is in icebreakers, where it is the power of choice because it has the ability to withstand shock loads better than conventional gear driven systems. That's gotta be a benefit in a dozer.
D/E systems are more efficient at turning engine HP to shaft torque by a factor of about 20%. That is D/E is considered to hold around 98% of engine torque, whereas gear driven systems are about 70%. So 20% more torque in the water. 20% more torque at the tracks from the same engine would be nice too, assuming you beef the weight up to use it. An engine 20% smaller putting the same power on the ground while operating at it's most fuel economical setting sounds good too though.
Next benifit is speed. In a gear driven system you have to wait for the gears to stop turning one way before reversing them to go the other. Powershift speeds this but the cost is increased wear. Those old direct drive transmissions lasted forever because of the delay involved in swinging the main clutch, forward/ reverse lever, and often a gear change as well. How long does it take the light to go on on off when you hit the switch? Does the wiring wear out when you do it? The principal is exactly the same.
Then we come to durability. Throw out the costs assosiated with converters, transmissions, bevel gears, brakes, clutches etc. Add one DC generator. They have a service life of around 20,000hrs for a good one, not counting the bearings which are a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to replace than a tranny rebuild. And you don't have to rely on an operator pulling dipsticks and putting oil in to keep it from dismantleing itself. There are none. Replace the bearings every 5000 hrs in a scheduled service and forget about them again.
So I have no doubt that D/E systems can power a dozer better than any existing system. Whether Cat's can is a different matter.

I remember the fuss and naysayers when the first Liebherr hydrostatic dozers appeared here. The people who said loudest it couldn't work in a dozer cause it was different to an excavator were Cat.
 
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