Hvy equip school or union apprenticeship?

I served in Vietnam, yes. Leave this one alone.

Heavy011266 said:

Local 324 seems like a great program but its 450+ miles away in the Detroit area. Technically we're across the river in Wisconsin from Iron Mountain Michigan. Is that still the best option?

The IUOE locals (139, 420) in Wisconsin are both in the Milwaukee area about 250 miles away, should he look into those instead? Are most programs with IUOE equally good?

I'm going to get him a more reliable used car for these programs but things are tight for us up here and lodging costs are a consideration unless he makes enough just to get by with starting out.

Thanks

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If you live in Wisconsin he should apply at 139. A Lot of the training sites have dorms onsite to stay in. I'm not sure if 139 does. Yes, all of the IUOE programs are equal. We even have an international site in Texas that is available to member at no cost. I have taken several classes taught by 139 instructors, and can say they are top notch. 139 is known nationwide for its GPS program. Several of their guys even work with Trimble with development and troubleshooting.

Just because the training sites are far from you does not mean that's where he will be working. The dispatchers try to get you working closer to home. That is not a guarantee though, especially as an apprentice.

I started in the IUOE 302 in AK. I am no longer in the union and am not pro-union. Im not against them either.

But being in the union in my early twenties allowed me to work around some guys that would blow your mind with how good they were on the equipment.

It showed me "what good looks like". It let me know where the bar was set.

Correction... the 3 week school in escanaba Michigan is $4k the other school near sun prairie Wisconsin is for 8 weeks and $16k.

Thank you for all your insights, I'm gonna sit down with him and talk about yourthoughts on this issue. It's good to know potentially he wouldn't have to attend only the union training facility and that some might have dorm options.

John Canfield said:

I highly recommend a career in the military or at least one enlistment. That helped me mature at an accelerated rate and set the stage for my career.

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Veterans do get a better shot at the IUOE when they get out using the Boots to Hardhats program. Not sure I would enlist for that reason but it is a good program for those whom are already serving. That said I would go the IUOE route if there is any possibility at all. He will have no school travel expense except for the weeks he is in school, usually about 2 weeks to 4 weeks a year. Always was a week at a time but not sure now. Some areas you get paid your wage while in school out of a local wide apprentice fund, as long as you attended and got your paperwork signed off. I would start talking to every Operators Local in a 1500 mile radius. One needs to be in an area where a person can can get the job because of a labor shortage and get his foot in the door. Its all about how bad you want it and the gumption to go forward and do it. He can transfer to any local he wants after he becomes a journeyman. Wishing him the best of luck in whatever he does.

Like a couple of the Guys mentioned, your local Cat dealer has a program at Owens Community College called ThinkBig. The apprentices rotate between school and the Dealership in approximately 8-week blocks, get paid, get tools and uniforms, laptop and all the course material. It's heavily subsidized by Caterpillar Inc and the dealer. The Aprrentice has to put some skin in the game, but they can finish the program in about two years with very little out-of-pocket expense. The Dealer usually helps with locating housing while on-site at the community college.

I thought I saw head-shakes from some at the advice to enlist in the military.

Yeah, I was in Vietnam and was actually medivaced back to the U.S., but I would have been much lesser a person had I not served. As to learning "a trade," I was infantry, military police, and aviation, and did retire from a part-time (weekend warrior) national guard job. Much of the value of serving in the military is the inner discipline that one usually acquires. But, each to his own. What works for one doesn't always work for the next.

I've managed highway & bridge construction projects for over 45 years for my employer, a county road department. The union contractors all employ Local 324 members. Some of the contracts thru MDOT have On The Job training programs. I believe there is a shortage of good experienced workers after the lost decade where most contractors shrunk by 30-50 percent.
The union contractors work all over the UP and I would assume enter into Wisconsin. The LP contractors work all over the LP and some work also in IN and OH. So the idea he will work close to home won't happen. Some of the commutes these guys have is mind boggling to a guy who's commute is 2.3 miles one way for the last 45 years
His other option is to start with a local contractor as a laborer. If he shows initiative and starts to anticipate what needs to be done next I think he will do fine. Especially if he leaves his phone in his vehicle. If he's interested in running a piece of equipment, he should ask the boss if he can "practice" at lunch time. If he can get a bit of experience and show some ability to learn it, the boss might let him fill in if the operator has to be off for the day. Oh and the 1st rule, is show up on time every day. Not late or some excuse why he can't make it today.
Contractors, did i miss any anything ?

Raildudes Dad,

That’s a well-thought recipe for success, you just scribed.

Every contributor to this forum has done similar things to get started because at one point In our lives we knew nothing about this industry most have similar pet peeves as well biggest is be on time that's 10 minutes early the other be willing to do what ever job is asked of you ( within obvious reason of course) if your not willing to put in the time on the shovel chasing a machine then you have realistic expectation of what an operator should be capable of and you will not have a respect for the ditch labor

If your not willing to do the grunt work to learn and earn your way up then your not cut out for this line of work cause you wont be willing to do the hard work in a pinch witch makes you useless in my opinion

Thank you very much for all your input.

I spoke to what sounded like an older gentleman at local 139 appreciate prorgram yesterday. He said the biggest thing he can do to get a foot up on the competition is to get his class A CDL to be a stronger candidate to potentially get accepted in a IUEO program and said to hold off until he gets accepted taking various online certifications like OSHA 30, he said contractors don't trust certifications unless it's done through a verifiable place like a union.

He's signed up yesterday for a class a cdl class, he's very excited. I also have my class a cdl with all the endorsements and I never regret getting it though I don't drive anymore. I told him to go for all the endorsements as well.

Additional question please... He wants to move eventually back to Tennessee. Are there certain states that don't like or hire union members? I thought some western and southern states don't like union workers and rarely hire them? 20 years ago I knew a ibew electrician from Chicago who moved out to Wyoming, following his family, short story is allegedly companies blacklisted him because he was union and could only get a job at home depot electrical department. Any reality to this with certain states?

Thanks again.

In my experience here in AZ we are not a big union area the operators union is kinda a joke compared to the market and back in the day they were very much a political good old boys club my dad grandpa and cousins and a few family friends all kept there membership till the mid 80s early 90s so they could travel

Now days I think there are like 8 major companies that have union contracts here and you can most times negotiate something better for yourself around here outside the local here. I dont know of anybody being blacklisted for being a union guy but most of them wont work a non union shop cause its against the rules.

If you work union in this state it either a municipality job or your on the road all the time to make steady money being non union here you can get a job most anywhere and right now if you can show up its name your price terms.

I know operators making 35 an hour with benefits plus a vehicle allowance I think scale is 28.

I am paying guys that would still be apprentices making 20 to 21 bucks in union 25 and 26 bucks because that's the talent level they have. We are also a right to work state so you are responsible to yourself to get what you think you deserve and in my experience if your talent is where your mouth is you can get top tier pay

Heavy011266 said:

I spoke to what sounded like an older gentleman at local 139 appreciate prorgram yesterday. He said the biggest thing he can do to get a foot up on the competition is to get his class A CDL to be a stronger candidate to potentially get accepted in a IUEO program and said to hold off until he gets accepted taking various online certifications like OSHA 30, he said contractors don't trust certifications unless it's done through a verifiable place like a union.

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This has not been my experience. We are currently working for a very large GC (over $1B in annual revenue) with a strict safety department and all of our certifications have been through various online courses like eTrain, etc. This GC uses the same online classes to train their staff as well - OSHA 10, 30, competent person, etc.

The apprenticeship guys like to act like they are the only ones who can train anyone, and only a "union" cert is any good. Its job protectionship, and they like to talk it up as to how generals should only use union subs because they are trained better. OSHA 10 or 30 is the same taught from anyone, and the card is good no matter where he gets it from.

I really dislike some of the union / non union nonsense, so I've been avoiding this thread, but what the heck- its the internet and I've got a opinion on this subject, so I'm laying it all out

I've been union and non union. As far as union operators, and employees, here's my take: The top 15% are the best guys you can find anywhere, turn them loose with a 10 or 50 million dollar project and get out of their way. They are the very best and are great great guys, who know their stuff.

The next 55% of them are putting out a good days work for a day of good wages and benefits. They are worth what you are paying for them, which is pretty high wages in most areas by the time you figure in the benefits package. They are the backbone of the union force.

The bottom 30% are what give the union a bad name. They hate anyone that's not union (rats), they hate "the man" (the employer) because "the man" is always holding them down. They feel they are owed a job from "the man", and yet will look for every little rule about start hours- show up pay- notify 24 hours before hand for OT or can refuse, etc. etc, to get out of work. Some of them must have dirty pictures of the BA with their aunt is the only reason they have a job. They live for filing a grievance with the steward. They make what can be a great thing, into a very bad thing.

So really the numbers of good to bad employees in the union- is no different than the population at large, because after all- humans are humans. Its just that if you're the employer, you can fire the non union worthless ones, easier than you can get rid of the worthless ones that are union. You can get rid of the useless union ones too- its just a little more difficult game instead of "here's your last check".

As far as the apprenticeship program- Most of the really good operators I worked with in the union, didn't come from the apprenticeship program. They learned their skill non union, and were hired into a union company when in their 30-40's and were taken in because they really know what they were doing. A couple months at the IUOE training center or 16 weeks at a school- neither one makes someone competent.

The union work is going to mean a lot of traveling jobs, and a lot of time between jobs laid off- until he has enough experience and a steady reputation with a couple good union contractors who are calling him back for all their jobs. Its a long road, but the benefits and pay are worth it if he can stick it out.

I get applications and phone calls from kids just graduated from operator school, who've been shown the ads on "Jobs Indeed" for crane operators on a wind farm project making $42/ hr.

Of course they think some company is going to turn them loose with a 4 million dollar crane after 16 weeks of school. I give them the bad news that they are going to be running a carry deck on shut down turn arounds, or flying rebar with a 30 ton RT for a concrete company for 5 years. Maybe hanging signs with a sign truck. Running a telehandler. Whatever it takes to get seat time and experience.

In the union they end up running a telehandler or being a oiler on a larger crane,running a loader at a quarry or skidloader, or hauling counterweights in a semi truck, to learn what the job entails. Its all about getting time in the seat on the job.

I tell the applicants the real news, and how to go out and get a real job to get some experience, not to hold out for the $42/ hr running a lattice crawler with 450' of stick in on a wind farm. They need to learn the construction trade as a whole.

I personally know 2 guys who did attend the quickie operator school, and stuck through the traveling jobs, and have made a living running cranes. There are a lot of students that have wasted the $$. They won't travel and/or won't take a "lesser" job just to get the experience they need.

Whichever way he goes, he'll learn something. Maybe that he likes running iron, maybe not. But there is always a need for good guys who know their craft. I wouldn't get too hung up over starting out union or non union either. If he gets good at what he does, the union option is always there.

IUOE apprenticeship all the way best wages best insurance best retirement!!!