• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

To expand or not

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
Good point Aziron !

Ran in to one of those last week ….

Feller was asking what we charge per hour on the phone call ?

Then he proceeded to tell me the job would take 3 day's .



I'm like hey baby bubba ……. We come scope the job out and shoot you cost up front . :)


I don't take every job that comes down the pike . LMAO ! :D

Like # 45 would say …. " Sometimes you have to walk away ."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Something that dawned on me about growing a business today when a perspective new customer called and said I was highly recommended but am really expensive but they figured they would try us out my response was sir you miss understand I have not decided if I want to try you out as a customer I dont need the practice or the experience to take care of your work when you have a job you want done call and schedule it if not dont waste my time fishing me to straighten out the guy you have used for 10 years

Point is most customers act like they do you the favor of using you and therefore rates are negotiable in there opinion as well how much of there work goes to you as holding that over your head

If your not prepared to be able to walk away and see a crews equipment set at the yard for a week then your not prepared to add that crew or employee this is the reason I see many acquaintances get in a bind with customers they can't afford to walk away and they mentally cant walk away and growth is where most of this becomes a factor

Food for thought

That is the attitude of virtually everyone here. I have a few customers who are *ahem* the type many complain about, they are exactly like that, it's all about who is cheapest. They got someone else to do the last dig because they undercut me, although for demos I seem to be the cheapest. But at the end of the day, I quote what I want for the job, if someone wants to work for free go ahead. They aren't all bad, I finished a demo on wednesday and got paid thursday, getting paid quick hassle free goes a long ways for me. I learned my lesson last year. I did a few jobs where someone was cheaper so I matched or beat by a bit and lost my shirt. I did a few where I couldn't have even afforded to pay a guy to run the machine and cover fuel, largely because it was winter and backfills take so long it's really tough to make money on them to begin with, never mind doing it for cheap. Will never do it again. I trust my estimating and anytime I come down I regret it.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Might end up working out with the builder anyway, they use 2 of all trades so it would be around 20-25 a year which I could handle, even if I don't expand. Will see if the rate is there. But it is tempting not have to do quotes, deal with people who think they are builders, chase money, etc.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
You can always call the Operating Engineer Union hall for a trained operator when you need one. Let him go on the out of work list when you don't have work, and call him back by name if he is the guy you want. Fair wages and benefits and a trained employee for what ever machine you need one for. Another plus is that you can sleep well knowing your employee has health coverage and something more than SSI when he retires.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
You can always call the Operating Engineer Union hall for a trained operator when you need one. Let him go on the out of work list when you don't have work, and call him back by name if he is the guy you want. Fair wages and benefits and a trained employee for what ever machine you need one for. Another plus is that you can sleep well knowing your employee has health coverage and something more than SSI when he retires.

I've never heard of that here for operators, only stuff like welders, pipefitters, etc. I don't think i'd be interested in that anyway, just because they have experience and tickets IMO doesn't mean they are a good operator, or take care of equipment. I've seen enough "operators" running equipment for big companies that I wouldn't trust on a $20 shovel never mind an expensive piece of equipment. I am going to hire 1 guy in the spring and see how it goes. I know I will have enough to keep 1 guy busy full-time even with the equipment I have now.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
I've never heard of that here for operators, only stuff like welders, pipefitters, etc. I don't think i'd be interested in that anyway, just because they have experience and tickets IMO doesn't mean they are a good operator, or take care of equipment. I've seen enough "operators" running equipment for big companies that I wouldn't trust on a $20 shovel never mind an expensive piece of equipment. I am going to hire 1 guy in the spring and see how it goes. I know I will have enough to keep 1 guy busy full-time even with the equipment I have now.

Hard to believe that anyone in the business could exist without knowing there is a operators union. You can believe me that the unqualified that don't take care of equipment wash out quickly.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Hard to believe that anyone in the business could exist without knowing there is a operators union. You can believe me that the unqualified that don't take care of equipment wash out quickly.

I looked it up and turns out there is one here, not much action though. Honestly just looks like a job posting board with only a few bigger companies posting stuff and it seems to be permanent or at least a few week jobs, nothing for the day sort of thing. I know i'm not the only one, when I was trying last year I asked around a lot and no one ever mentioned it to me that it existed here for that sort of thing.
 

fourwheel1

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
24
Location
Millersburg ohio
Occupation
excavating & farming
Union operators usually are a lot more expensive and aren't Jack-of- all-trades type. They will only run whatever piece of equipment u called them out for. They may be able to operate but not run a job or small project.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,258
Location
Canada
Usually your company has to be in the union to get union operators. Also union members taking side jobs with non union companies can be booted from the union. Unions will boast they are better, faster and safer but there are non union companies that are just as good or even better. Being in the union isn't the be all end all but can have certain advantages. Like anything else there are good and bad unions.
 

Don.S

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Messages
397
Location
Montreal Canada
Just remember that you gotta pay to play. My boss at the moment is having a hard time with that. Always wants cheap that he can buy in cash then wonders why he cant find truck drivers who will drive all day with out AC or a good radio. Wonders why guys dont want to run a open cab ctl and huff dust all day for $16 a hour.
You gotta make it worth it to guys to work for you or they will walk down the street and work for the next guy. If you are not willing to do that then do not bother expanding or you will always be training new guys and doing all the work yourself and probably making less money.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,258
Location
Canada
Depends a lot on the economy. When things are booming employee's can pick and choose where they want to work. When things are slow the A-hole bosses take advantage of the employee's. You don't like it, there's the door. I worked in a shop that went through 9 guys a week when things were busy. They advertised all summer long looking for welders but were so well known for treating their employee's like crap, the only people applying were from out of province. One of the guys working there figured every welder in Alberta had been through that shop. One guy was fired and rehired the same day because they couldn't get welders. I didn't work in the main shop so didn't get the brunt of all the yelling at screaming from the owner. After 5 month's I had enough. A lot of good guys worked there but going in in the morning you always wondered if the owner was going to be on the rampage. I was working on a mud tank in the main shop one day. The owner starts yelling because he wants the grating on top to be welded every 2' instead of every 4' feet. Nobody did anything wrong. All he had to do was say to put more welds on the grating. Surprised no one had shot the owner. A lot of people thought about it and would have cheered. He sold the company to a big oilfield outfit for about 45 million and stayed on as big shot there. I heard from a guy who's son worked there that this a-hole went up to a welder who he thought was abusing a grinder, took a $100 bill out of his pocket, threw it on the floor and said "You think I have $100 to throw away every time you wreck a grinder?" and fired the guy! I think the grinder was acting up because the brushes needed to be replaced.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
I think there's a happy medium depending what you're doing. In the climate here I would absolutely expect an employee to run a truck or piece of equipment without AC, it's not a big deal plenty do it, including me. No AC in my dump and it doesn't work on my mini and I couldn't care to fix it as it's not a priority. But that's a whole lot different from running old junk equipment without the basics. I wouldn't expect a driver to drive my dump as is all day, without a air seat for example.

But people also need to look after stuff if you expect to run nice stuff. I'm kinda getting a test run of employees now, and I don't like it. It's my dads dump but i'm basically looking after the driver. No complaints about the truck, well shouldn't be it's a 2015 automatic it's a nice truck to drive. But doesn't look after it. Smoked in it without ever asking (only been my family that's drove it before him and none of us can stand the smell of smoke), wasn't doing pre-trips physically pre-trip or the paperwork, basically just getting in turning the key and going, carelessly backs over things, didn't know what the wait to start light was (I wanted to strangle him for that), and on and on. Now this isn't some 20 year old, this guy is around 70 and until a few years ago ran his own truck for 10+ years, so you shouldn't have to tell him much. This is in addition to the fact that every second day at least, he goes to the wrong place at least once. I told my dad already, I would have fired him 2 or 3 times over, but it's not my truck so his decision other then the fact that i've had enough with his mistakes costing me money and it won't happen anymore.

I'm on sites a decent amount with my brothers guys too and I don't bother saying much anymore. He seems to think it's the best that's out there, which for concrete probably isn't far off. The worst he threatened one guy was if the oil in his crew truck got below safe again he wouldn't be driving it anymore.

It is pretty common and I don't get it. How can people treat things like ****? I mean if it's a $100 drill it's a lot different then a $30k truck or skidsteer, etc but if they abuse one chances are they abuse everything.

I don't think I will ever go beyond 1 employee. Once things are back in swing if there is a fair amount of work i'm going to try and find someone who can run my CTL and dump truck, maybe even semi-retired who only wants to work a bit. I don't care if someone is a bit slow. But I absolutely will not put up with anyone abusing my stuff.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Ya you shouldn't get employees you wont be happy.

I would be with a good one, but they are so few and far between. Part of the problem with my business is from day 1 i'd have to trust someone with a truck or piece of equipment. It's not like others where you can start them laboring, or at least have others around constantly to see how they do. One dump truck driver who went from one guy I know to another couldn't understand why she got fired. She backed a slinger into a tree and crumpled the conveyor. For a small business having a huge expense and having a very expensive truck down she couldn't have cared less. Stuff like that absolutely drives me crazy. Too many employees think just because you run a company you're a millionaire and have endless resources and make stupid amounts of money. Not the case at all. Employee screw ups mean in some cases the company is loosing money on the job.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,258
Location
Canada
In the case of the grinder, the employee didn't do anything wrong. Drills, grinders, circular saws and other tools can wear out brushes. Some of the higher end tools will stop before the brushes are completely worn and damage the commutator. I think rules and/or training on how employee's are expected to conduct themselves should be established well before they hop in any vehicle or equipment no matter how much experience they have. If you don't want an employee to smoke in vehicles tell them from the get go otherwise how would they know? Considerate people will ask but some are just ignorant. I had a guy in my pick up know not to smoke but lit up and figured if he opened the window and didn't use the ashtray was OK. I was so close to stopping and kicking him out on the side of the road. Have no use for people like that.
 

farmerlund

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
1,237
Location
North Dakota
Occupation
Farmer/ excavator
As others have said the key is finding a good one. My last 2 guys have been really good. Some of the things I look for while interviewing is do they have hobbies, motorcycles, restoring cars, just doing something. To me it shows some self motivation.
Do they keep there personal car in good shape? A beater full of garbage is probably how they will treat your equipment.
Other people will do somethings a little different than you. I try not to micro manage. but will give advise if I don't like the direction someone is going.

Remember everything you teach someone else to do is one less thing you have to do yourself. Freeing up time to bid more jobs, or do another operation that makes more cash.
 

Don.S

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Messages
397
Location
Montreal Canada
Hire slow, fire fast!
the work force is retiring and the number of people entering cannot fill the number of positions. That mentality will have to be dropped if people want to stay in business. Take someone on and spent the time and money training them the right way and make lots of money off the work they do later.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,258
Location
Canada
Some places prefer to hire apprentices so they can train them how they want them to do things. Better than bringing people in who have developed bad habits.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
The apprenticeship process has been dead for years in the US and it is more likely than not that it will ever return in any form. It became nothing more than cheap labor anyway and not a method of training on the job that it was purported to be.

Hiring bodies has never worked and made lousy companies even worse. Hiring takes time along with someone who has a good judgment of character to recognize those characteristics that indicate a person's degree of integrity, attention to detail, willingness to take on tough projects and can demonstrate critical thinking skills. People who violate terms of employment have to face timely consequences as an example to the rest of the employees. As a manager in the past, I found out the hard way that people with bad attitudes are nothing but poison to the rest of the company and are in essence only begging to be moved out the door.

"Hire slow, fire fast" was the mantra at all the best companies I've worked for.
 
Top