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CAT 305.5e2 Opinions

DGODGR

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I only saw the word komatsu mentioned briefly. Demoed a 305.5 thinking of replacing my 55 and no way did I want to own the cat after seeing and feeling the difference between the two.
Thanks for offering an opinion. This whole conversation is pretty anecdotal but I'd really like to hear more details about why you have that opinion. Can you please elaborate a little bit on that? In the meantime I will offer what little experience I have with Komatsu.
I have a friend who has both a Cat 305C CR, and a Komatsu PC55MR (2018 I believe). When I asked him about it he basically referred me to one of his employees (To me that says that, even though he doesn't have a lot of direct seat time comparison to offer, he also doesn't have any major complaints about it either-visa vie the boss would be aware of major issues). His employee is also a friend of mine. The employee/other friend did tell me that he prefers the Komatsu over the Cat. He said he prefers the visibility (not fair comparison as the subject PC 55 is an open ROPS machine), how much smoother the hydraulics of the machine are, and that it will reach a little farther than the 305. The reach is not an issue as the 55 compares better to the 305.5e2 (which actually has a tad bit more reach than the 55 on paper). I actually like the tilting cab feature (for ease of maintenance) of the Komatsu. I do plan to go check his machine out and probably get a quote from the local Komatsu outfit. With my comments on performance out of the way I will move on to the, possibly more important, topic of support. While I have a dealer about 40 miles south of me (in another state), and a dealer about 10 miles north of me (it's more rather" kind of a dealer") I fear that support would be lacking with the Komatsu and I can't say if Komatsu is offering a sweet price, or the financing (zero down and 0% for 60 months). I guess we will see when I call them (I don't even know the salesman's name!). When I say "kind of a dealer" it is because the actual brick and mortar dealership is either 4 or 6.5 hours away from me. In my town said dealer has a fenced in yard (sub-letting most of it to one of our local material suppliers), a vacant double-wide, a shipping container with some parts (which they claim you can pick parts up from if you order), and a mobile mechanics truck. They have been claiming that they intend to build a real dealership here for the whole 20 years that I have lived here. That doesn't speak very well to their commitment to this area (to me anyway). My friend's PC55MR is the only small Komatsu I have seen in the area. There are quite a few larger units working around here and those that I have talked to are happy with them. Said dealer has actually put about 6 or 8 brand new Takeuchi minis in that yard recently. I do live in a small town so One could argue that I'm just in too rural of an area. That argument is easily de-bunked when Cat, Deere (and Hitachi), Case (and Kobelco), and Bobcat, all have real dealerships here. Regardless I will reach out to them even though I don't feel very comfortable with the level of support that I think they can offer. With all that being said I would still love to hear your (more detailed) argument about why you feel so strongly Komatsu over Cat regarding current 5.5 ton minis.
 

Canuck Digger

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Honestly, I've run a few of the smaller cats and my opinion is the smaller CAT stuff is quite over rated when you look at the overall machine. There really was nothing that stood out that some of the other brands that I own or have run can't do. I think there is about half dozen other machines I'd choose over a cat. Price point and dealer support is where I look. If you wana be cool, for sure buy a CAT. lol. Don't over look TK's, yanmars, Komatsu, Kubota.
 

DGODGR

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Honestly, I've run a few of the smaller cats and my opinion is the smaller CAT stuff is quite over rated when you look at the overall machine. There really was nothing that stood out that some of the other brands that I own or have run can't do. I think there is about half dozen other machines I'd choose over a cat. Price point and dealer support is where I look. If you wana be cool, for sure buy a CAT. lol. Don't over look TK's, yanmars, Komatsu, Kubota.
I'm not sure I'm looking for the Cat to be an extremely superior machine. It would be nice if it did everything better than all the other machines but I doubt that this would be true for any machine. The expectation that I have for a Cat mini (or really any brand mini) would for it to have fairly good performance, and great reliability, the best possible support, a good price and good financing. If you refer to the previous posts in this thread you would notice that I am looking closest at the Cat because so far they have the best price, financing, and support of all the machines that I have experience with. Of the other brands that you have mentioned there are no Yanmar dealers near me (that I'm aware of), I do not feel that the Kubota is quite up to the task (I speak to my opinion on that brand above), I am waiting on price, availability, and financing quotation from Komatsu (though I have expressed my concerns regarding support above), and I have been doing some research on the Takeuchi (but have the same concerns about support as I do from Komatsu as it would be from the same dealer). While I am open to discussion regarding other brands the main reason for this thread is to have another source of information to help vet out the Cat's performance and reliability. While I do think that the Cat is cool it would be way cooler if it comes with the best price, financing, works above average, and has the best support. So I guess we are in agreement on our priorities but maybe not on which brands meets those priorities. Some of that must be due to the dealership and not just the brand.
 

Tags

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I have not run a Cat mini ever, I see some in my area but certainly not enough to think they're selling like hotcakes. The Cat dealer is about an hour away from my area and I do see lots of bigger Cat equipment. I see a ton of Kubotas, had a 161 myself for years and thousands of trouble free hours, I believe there are so many Kubotas because there are dealers everywhere near me. I am fairly certain at this point with the introduction of so much electronics and emissions being jammed into equipment now that the dealer support should probably be one of the top things to be considered when purchasing a machine. I also think that most of the minis in the same class pretty much perform very similar to one another and if the dealer is good with support it then comes down to cab size, and features. If the Cat dealer has good support, the machine will fill a need you have, and it is at a price point that works for you, have em send one out for a demo and see how it goes.
 

DGODGR

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I have not run a Cat mini ever, I see some in my area but certainly not enough to think they're selling like hotcakes. The Cat dealer is about an hour away from my area and I do see lots of bigger Cat equipment. I see a ton of Kubotas, had a 161 myself for years and thousands of trouble free hours, I believe there are so many Kubotas because there are dealers everywhere near me. I am fairly certain at this point with the introduction of so much electronics and emissions being jammed into equipment now that the dealer support should probably be one of the top things to be considered when purchasing a machine. I also think that most of the minis in the same class pretty much perform very similar to one another and if the dealer is good with support it then comes down to cab size, and features. If the Cat dealer has good support, the machine will fill a need you have, and it is at a price point that works for you, have em send one out for a demo and see how it goes.
It seems like most everything is getting like that (on multiple points that you have made). There are purchase options in just about all the big ticket items we buy these days and, as you said, they usually are pretty close in performance and features. Obviously there are one-offs and exceptions but as a general rule anyone could make a good case for that position. In the context of this particular discussion the only units that could even be theoretically considered are the TB/FR series of Takeuchi. We did bring those up earlier in the thread and the TB 153FR was/is the unit in this size class. I said was/is because they are not currently marketing them in the US anymore so (if we were to consider those at this time) we would have to find a good used unit to consider. The reason that I brought that unit up (both earlier and now) is because I think that platform is unique, has a decent fan/user base, and thus merits consideration. It sounds like the availability of that machine (or something similar) may change but likely not in time for me.
I also agree that the complexity of these machines now (and proprietary software, etc.) has made specific dealer support much more critical than ever before.
As it relates to demo I have demoed the Cat but it was about a year ago. I will try out the specific machine before I purchase it. I should have a quote from Komatsu on Monday and they said they also have a machine close by for me to demo. I think I will seize this opportunity and have both units out to the ranch and put them head-to-head.
 

Tags

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I will also add this. I bought a Tak TB260 about 3 years ago, I went with the Tak because it is a bit bigger than a Kubota KX057, had some nicer features, big cab, and the dealer although about 2 hours from me had a great service/parts man and good support. Ive had two differential pressure sensors go bad at two different times both at just around 1000 hours, called them up, spoke with said parts/ service guy, gave him codes and received the sensors, swapped em out and I was back in business. Paying $500 a sensor was bugging me so I was doing some reading about the warrantee for the Yanmar motor and it looks to me like the sensors should be covered under the emissions warrantee that Yanmar has, called my salesman, he has been checking to see if they are covered.....for the last 4-5 weeks....I've heard nothing....come to find out that the service/ parts man and their lead mechanic have left the company....so much for my dealer support....Also, as far as financing, Tak uses an outside lender, where as I'm fairly certain that Kubota, Komatsu, and Cat all have in house financing which is why I belive that they can give very attractive financing options.
 

DGODGR

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I will also add this. I bought a Tak TB260 about 3 years ago, I went with the Tak because it is a bit bigger than a Kubota KX057, had some nicer features, big cab, and the dealer although about 2 hours from me had a great service/parts man and good support. Ive had two differential pressure sensors go bad at two different times both at just around 1000 hours, called them up, spoke with said parts/ service guy, gave him codes and received the sensors, swapped em out and I was back in business. Paying $500 a sensor was bugging me so I was doing some reading about the warrantee for the Yanmar motor and it looks to me like the sensors should be covered under the emissions warrantee that Yanmar has, called my salesman, he has been checking to see if they are covered.....for the last 4-5 weeks....I've heard nothing....come to find out that the service/ parts man and their lead mechanic have left the company....so much for my dealer support....Also, as far as financing, Tak uses an outside lender, where as I'm fairly certain that Kubota, Komatsu, and Cat all have in house financing which is why I belive that they can give very attractive financing options.
I have heard from a HEF member (who is very partial to Takeuchi I might add) that the 260 leaves something/s to be desired in the performance department. Take that for what it's worth but that's the only report (besides the one you just gave) on the 260 that I have heard. Too bad about those sensors. I would also add that the fact that you have to go back to your dealer to get those parts covered doesn't speak very well to the level of support in the first place. What I mean is that the parts and service guys (that you now say are no longer there) should have warranted the parts to begin with-They should have known! Furthermore, in my experience with multiple brands over decades in this line of work, the personnel at a Cat or Deere dealership are usually there for the long term. Many make careers out of that employment so (at least in my opinion) that further adds to the theory that the big brands can provide superior support. Especially when you consider the experience that you have posted above (which aligns with my experience over time) of lesser qualified personnel and a higher employee turn-over rate.
I know that Cat and Deere have their own finance companies but I'm not sure about the others.
 

KSSS

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I will be interested to hear the thoughts on the Komatsu. I have never run one. When your used to what a typical mini ex does, finding a machine to meet that expectation is relatively easy since as stated above, the performance between them typically isn't very drastic. Finding an OEM that covers the service, parts and financing aspects of owning a machine can be more difficult which is what DGODGR is working through.

The reason I have not replaced my 153 is because it isn't typical (I am about 1200 or so hours over when I normally rotate out) When you become used to what you can do with it, your strategy to complete projects acclimates to that capability. Until Taki announced the return of a new version of the 153, I was getting ready to have to buy something else. After 16 years of running an FR, that is not a small adjustment. Myself and those contractors around me that also own 153's (that I am tight with) found ourselves in the same situation, machines due to be rotated out and nothing to fill the performance gap. The machine isn't perfect and there are some negative trade offs due to its unique design. However, the performance upsides, at least to date, have proven far and above the negatives. We here, are fortunate that the service for Taki is good and hopefully that doesn't change. If there were no service for Taki, I think I would still have to find a solution that would allow me to keep buying them.

I bring this up not to try and convince anyone else to buy one (especially if your a competitor of mine), they may not be for everyone. Sometimes though you come across a machine that gives your operation measurable/noticeable advantages over other contractors. The FR is certainly that machine for me, it punches above its weight class but does it while operating within a couple inches of its own footprint for 360 degrees, and loads trucks with the same ease as a traditional full-size excavator and has great lift and stability. I was elated to learn that Taki is bringing them back, so I don't have to go through what DGODGER is.
 

DoyleX

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Keep in mind that my 55 is a 98 with just shy of 4,000 hrs. Ive owned is for a majority if the years since around 1,200 hrs.
The dealer is a short hour away and one of the oldest komatsu dealers around. All of my other major equipment is caterpillar with another oldest major dealer within a short hour. I was looking at upping to get away from a set of tracks and pins, bushings in the entire boom.

Major problems, not much. A starter and starter relay under the seat, a few leaky cylinders, swing boom bushings and bore and a set of tracks. The main hyd hose went the other year. Wish I had the tilt cab then. The Yanmar sips fuel and no matter how cold always starts. Change all the oils, slow warm ups and cool downs. Good care. The same basic machine has been produced for over 20yrs till the emission machines came out. The boom, cab shell and substructure is still the same. No bent and welded sticks like the cat. Everything is cut and welded construction still today.

Operation wise the cat couldnt hold a grade, jerky and unstable footed. Always had to have the blade in front of you or it would rear up. I actually took the blade off my komatsu because it didnt need it. The cat was really fast like all the machines nowadays but no way did it have the controllability and dexterity of the Komatsu. I guess you could compare it to the cat GC badged single pump hoe vs a traditional cat reverse flow machine. The feel was horrible. Im not using my mini to bail mass dirt. Im using it as a shovel so I dont have to most times. I do have a 3ft bucket and it handles that just fine also, everyday is the 2ft. Another big poo poo was the swing boom. It didnt pivot like my komatsu and when I use that I really need it. Cant remember why as this was around 5 years ago but the komatsu pivots 90 degrees left out the door with great visibility and 60-70 degrees out the right side. Reach with the long stick I measure usable range that from the idler toe to the bucket edge was within a couple inches depending on.

I have frenemies that have minis and I get a chance to run them from time to time. The cat, daewoo, kubota and deer I have operated have not come close to how my komatsu operates. Fast yes, controllable not so much in fine operation.
 
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DGODGR

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Thanks for taking the time to elaborate your experience DoyleX.
Here's an update.
Things have stalled for a bit for a couple reasons. I went ahead and engaged the Komatsu/Takeuchi dealer regarding this purchase. It took him a while to do some digging. I've also fallen under the weather with what I suspect to be this nasty influenza B I've heard about. It's been about a week so far and I'm ready for it to be over.
As much as I'm intrigued by, and would like to try, the Komatsu 55MR I think it's out of the running. There are (3) factors for this.
First is due the the huge cost difference. The Cat was offered at $64k (2020 305.5e2 with 0 hours) and the Komatsu was offered at $83k (2019 55MR with 200 hrs). That's a huge cost difference. The Komatsu would really have to be cheaper and/or offer a substantial advantage in some other facet (i.e. support, performance, longevity, re-sale, etc.) for me to seriously consider purchasing. This is because they don't have brick and mortar support closer than 3 or 4 hours drive from my town. I would have loved to demo it ( to try and see if I could justify the price difference) but they didn't want to bring a machine down unless I liked to the price first-which I did not. I really don't blame them for this but if they want to increase market share down here they are going to have to spend some money and/or take some risks. I even spent 2 hours on the phone with the regional Komatsu factory rep. Ultimately he admitted that Komatsu is just NOT competitive in that "utility" class (as he called it) and he thought the CAT was offering a smok'in deal and I should take it. Even if the machine is better I doubt it's $16k (25% more) better. DoyleX even confirmed that a little when he said he had to re-pin & bush his 55 at 4k hours. According to him he's not even using his for anything beyond precision work ("so I don't have to shovel" I think he said) and we will be using ours for production from time to time. If he had said it was at an 8k to 10k hour interval this might have supported the higher price point.
Second is the financing. With Cat offering ZERO % with ZERO down for 60 months the other brands can't match that either. Komatsu is offering 0% for 48 months but they still haven't gotten back to me on the zero down part (I think they've forgotten me now).
Lastly is the support. Cat has proven to me (over the years) that they can get most any part over night (if they don't already have it in the local store). Cat has 6-7 shop mechanics and has at least 3-4 mobile mechanics in town as well.

I may still try out the Takeuchi. They are offering a '19 TB260 (9 hr machine) for $73k. That machine will come with the additional (2) buckets I've asked for. To make that an "apples to apples" comparison we'd have to add $2k (Cat is offering a rebate on attachments as well) to the Cat. That comes to $66k which is still $7k less for the CAT! There was no mention of any Takeuchi incentivized financing so the price gap just grew even more. The support of the Tak is the same as the Komatsu because they are both offered by the same dealer. If I do demo the Tak it is really just a check to make sure the CAT is in the same league (which I'm fairly confident that it is).

Really it just boils down to me actually trying out the CAT and finishing the deal. There is a small chance that the CAT dealer may f%%!-up the deal but not highly likely.
 

KSSS

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It will likely be hard to beat the deal Cat is offering. Taki is offering 0% for 42 months and 1.9 for 60. I would like to hear what you think of the 260 if you end up demoing it.
 

DoyleX

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My machine had a very hard life before I owned it. The bucket was burned through, stuffed full of red dirt and greased 6 times in 1,200hrs. 18 years ago I started with nothing and needed a hoe that size because thats the work I did. Today it might get 50hrs a year as things grew and that side shrunk. It's unfortunate that the kmartsu dealer wont even try to sell you a machine. I dont know if the extra price would be worth it either. Good luck.
 

jamie_aug

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We run Takeuchi mini’s and love them. They are super durable in our hard rocky ground here in Hawaii.
I own both a TB240 and a TB260, and we run Montabet hammers on them quite a bit. They punch above there weight, we were cutting a slope the other day and we’re lifting 36-42 inch lava rocks out of the cut with the TB240. You do have to finesse it a bit but it can be done, sure it would have been nice to have a bigger machine on this particular job, but you work with what you have. Dealer support is pretty solid, the Case/Takeuchi dealer is about 5 miles from my house, the Cat and Kamatsu dealers are even closer. I did check out the cat 305.5e2 before we bought the 260. It was nice, but the Tak’s just has such a great reputation around here. We have a lot of them on the island and the old time operators speak very highly of them. When it comes to the big excavators it’s exclusively CAT and Kamatsu. I’ve never even seen a big Case machine, ever. But the mini’s, the Tak’s are super popular, with cat and Kamatsu in the mix too. I believe that the 305 and under series form CAT are not actually made by CAT, but another OEM, but the new next gen 306 to 310 series i believe is (please correct me if I’m wrong). I’ve yet to see one in person, but the new CAT 306 might be worth looking into and might just give the TB260 a run for its money. I will say if you can swing the money, the difference between the 4 ton and a 6 ton machine is pretty apparent, especially if your running a Hydraulic hammer. In the next six to twelve months, we will be looking for a machine in the 15 ton class, and we will be looking hard at the CATs like the 315 (it’s hard to beat cat’s financing, especially on a 15 ton and up), as well as the Takeuchi TB2150. Aloha!
 

DGODGR

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Okay! I Finally have an update. There was quite a delay in getting a demo on the subject machine. It seems as though Wagner doesn't carry 36" buckets for the 305.5. Since this is the size that we use most on our mini I required that one was available (both 34 and 36 inch actually) for the demo. My salesman claims that he had to go to bat with higher ups to get a 36" bucket purchased for "just a demo". Seems a bit crazy to think that a company as big as Wagner doesn't have a 36" bucket (for a 305.5) sitting on the ground somewhere. Anyway, this was the reason that the salesman gave me for the delay. This took over a month. Once the machine was delivered another salesman came by the job and talked me into doing a demo on the Tak TB 260 as well. Then he came by with the company owner along with the VP in charge of sales. They just happened to be in our little town that day so he brought them by. I was glad to meet them. They gave me the confidence that their dealership could possibly provide me with proper support even though their closest "brick and mortar" facility is 4 hours away. One of the factors was that they had their local mechanic (they have a mobile mechanic who lives in the area) drive the 4 hours (each way) to get the 36" bucket that they promised to have with the demo. That dealer also sells Komatsu (another brand that I was considering but was higher priced and closest machine to demo was the same 4 hours away -or so I was told) and they decided that hey would bring a PC55 down for m e to demo because they felt that I would see why it would be worth it for me to pay the extra $ for it over the others. The PC55 was at my job the next day (but no 36" bucket). It actually was brought down from Casper, WY! That's more than a 10 hour drive!! Suffice it say that this gave me more confidence that they were going to stand behind whatever they would sell me. Kudos to Power Motive Corp!
Since I had all the machines on the same job (at the same time) it was a great opportunity to put them through their paces. The Cat felt pretty good right out of the gate. I was able to tell that I preferred it over the TB260 pretty quickly. It felt very sluggish and cumbersome. It also had the odd tendency to curl the bucket very slow when also booming up. Even more odd was the fact that the bucket would curl i little faster (though still too slow) when we selected the "heavy lift" mode. I would think that such a mode would put even more priority to the boom. Once the mechanic arrived (the morning of the second day) with the 36" bucket he looked over the machine. He checked circuit pressures and decided to increase the relief pressure of the curl circuit. I'm not a mechanic but I'm not sure how this would make a difference. It did, however make a small difference. Even more remarkable was the fact that the whole machine worked better. It felt much more nimble and quick. I think he upped system pressure and not curl circuit relief. Still, the Cat was preferred by all operators. Once the Komatsu arrived I checked it out pretty thoroughly. In fact I parked all (4) machines in a row (I also had my Bobcat 435 at the site) to make side x side comparison of structural components easier. The TB260 is obviously a larger machine than the others (but the 250 is a little smaller than the others). All of them had, what I would say is a structural advantage, of one component, or another, over the others. It would be nice if I could take the parts I liked from each and make a "Frankenexcavator"!. I preferred the Tak push blade, the Komatsu U/C looked a bit stouter, the Cat main frame (or superstructure frame) looked the burliest. The PC55 has a different approach to the swing frame. It is very stout looking but the Cat looks stout as well (and is more conventional in design). They each use castings differently as well. Since the Tak was really bigger than what I was looking for, and I found it to be my least favorite in terms of how it worked, I narrowed things down to Cat vs Kom. There were things that I liked, and disliked on each machine. The Cat felt quicker, primarily in the swing. In fact, the Kom swing circuit took some getting used to. It felt like it took more time get the swing up to speed and also took more time to bring the swing circuit to a stop. Almost like feeling of going from a mini to a full sized excavator. The swing of the Kom also had a much louder gear noise. The Kom lever effort was greater too. I wouldn't say it was off-putting but it was noticeable. The Cat felt like it had the easiest time penetrating the earth and filling the bucket. I am not sure but I suspect that the Cat buckets might have something to do with this. Both of the other machines had WB (Workbraugh) buckets and they were stouter than the Cat buckets. I asked and Cat does not have a stouter bucket (than what they had already provided) until you move up to the 308 size machine.
In conclusion, every time that I would ask one of the guys to take a mini and go do a task they would invariably get in the Cat. When I demanded that they put time in one of the others (so that we could get comparative data) they would balk and grumble. I also preferred the way that the Cat performed and when I took the price, support, and financing terms it really was an easy decision.
I'm buying the Cat 305.5.
 

f311fr1

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Thank you for your real world input. Try TAG for a robust bucket. I had to get one for my 308 and will order one for my 304C CR in the next few months
 

DGODGR

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...and the one mini says to the others "Does this bucket make my a$$ look big?"
 

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DGODGR

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More machines than you can shake a stick at!
 

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DGODGR

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Thank you for your real world input. Try TAG for a robust bucket. I had to get one for my 308 and will order one for my 304C CR in the next few months
The Cat buckets that I have for my 315CL have held up extremely well. That machine has over 8,000 hours (and we often work in rock) and they have required nothing more than occasional hard facing. My normal mode is to err on the side of overbuilt when it comes to ground engaging tools but given my past experiences with Cat buckets I will give the Cat buckets a go. If they fail to live up to my standards then I will look to the aftermarket as there are a lot of good bucket MFRs out there.
 

KSSS

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Pretty cool you were able to run all the machines at the same time and come away with the machine you want.
 

DGODGR

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I chose to up load thumbnails last time (concerned about file size) so I'm going to re-upload full size so they can actually be viewed.
IMG_1701.jpg
I might need some more iron on this job (and you can't even see it all in this pic)!
Here's the "Does this bucket make my butt look big" picture.
IMG_1702.jpg
....And here's the view of the working end.IMG_1703.jpg

Pretty cool you were able to run all the machines at the same time and come away with the machine you want.
As you may have read above it was difficult to get them all on the job at the same time. I don't recall it being like that in the past. Maybe it's a product of the "lean inventory" business model we saw after the crash in '08....Or maybe it's an intentional sales strategy. Regardless, I was pleased that we got to demo them all at the same time.
 
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