Wetlands Police

tuney443 · Jun 18, 2008

I had a nice job going well up to yesterday when some nosy neighbor dropped a dime on my client and when I was out trucking,he had a little visit from the DEC.Cease and desist were the key words spoken---we're talking a 3'' wide by 1'' deep ''stream''????Putting in 12'' culvert and a 6'' curtain drain--just draining land that is getting water from an illegally dug pond's earthen dam that is leaking.Some senior agent is going to inspect the work tomorrow,We'll see what happens.

zhkent · Jun 18, 2008

Who's DEC?

nedly05 · Jun 19, 2008

zhkent said:
Who's DEC?

Department of Envinronmental Conservation.

tuney443 · Jun 19, 2008

OR---as we Yanks refer to them--Dep't of Enviromental Citations and the DOT is Dep't of Trouble.

Thankfully,my client is a stand-up guy--already told me he'd pay me extra for my ''inconvenience'' if necessary and will take care of any fines,etc.DEC will talk kinder to him than me,I'm sure,so I'm not going to be around there today at all.It's all about the money and job security{same thing} with them---if they REALLY,REALLY cared about siltation in streams,they would rip-rap the banks of every one.What happens every time it pours out---turbidity occurs--but their key phrase is''but that's nature''.Well,nature can be controlled to a degree---with all the money they generate from fines,they could use that for rip-rapping,but they don't.Pure BS.In New Mexico 2 years ago,I saw a loader operator pushing at least 50 yards of silt back into the stream where it came from after a flash flood.He told me that's standard operating procedure out there.In NY,you'd have your ass handed to you for doing that.Sorry for ranting. Over.

digger242j · Jun 19, 2008

Not to digress further, (cause I'm interested in hearing to outcome of this case), but I've always wondered why you never see silt fence around a farmer's plowed field? I mean, we have to protect a 10,000 square foot building lot that we'll have disturbed for several months, but a farmer plows up acres and acres of ground every year, for years on end...

Orchard Ex · Jun 19, 2008

digger242j said:
Not to digress further, (cause I'm interested in hearing to outcome of this case), but I've always wondered why you never see silt fence around a farmer's plowed field? I mean, we have to protect a 10,000 square foot building lot that we'll have disturbed for several months, but a farmer plows up acres and acres of ground every year, for years on end...

I guess that an argument could be made that the farm field is tilled and not compacted, so most of the water will be absorbed by the soil/crop cover. In the case of the building lot, the constant movement of equipment and vehicles compacts the area and makes the soils more impervious so the top layer of dust and dirt is carried away with the runoff. Just a theory. :beatsme
(hijack assist over)

digger242j · Jun 19, 2008

I guess that an argument could be made that the farm field is tilled and not compacted,...

Yeah, but if I just push up a pile of topsoil at the corner of the lot, it darn well better have silt fence around it, right?

(Hijack continues...)

Ray Welsh · Jun 19, 2008

digger242j said:
Yeah, but if I just push up a pile of topsoil at the corner of the lot, it darn well better have silt fence around it, right?

(Hijack continues...)

I'm not about to comment on compacted worksites versus tilled fields. Suffice to say that both have the potential to damage the environment during storms or floods.
I regard it as our responsibility as earthmovers, to be leaders and set the example in environmental conservation. The odd redneck may dissagree, however without biodiversity, we're all on a slippery slope towards extinction.
Shiny a$$es in offices sometimes have funny ideas on progress (like lawyers), so it's up to us to lead by good "housekeeping practices".....C ya..........Ray

Raildudes dad · Jun 19, 2008

digger242j said:
Not to digress further, (cause I'm interested in hearing to outcome of this case), but I've always wondered why you never see silt fence around a farmer's plowed field? I mean, we have to protect a 10,000 square foot building lot that we'll have disturbed for several months, but a farmer plows up acres and acres of ground every year, for years on end...

In our state, agriculture and logging are exempted from the statute, mining operations, mineral and aggregate must comply.

Turbo21835 · Jun 19, 2008

Well Digger, You bring up a great point. Ill also tell ya that it is being strongly encouraged that farmers have green areas on the edges of their fields. Around here the state gov is paying farmers each year to maintain ground cover along ditches, streams, ponds and lakes. They give you a mix of plant seed to drill, then they pay you to keep that ground undisturbed. Only thing you do to it is mow it 1 or 2 times a year. You take a look out in Iowa, those guys are pros at erosion control. Take a look at those fields, every low area where water runs is grass, and stays grass. They also terrace their fields.

Grader4me · Jun 19, 2008

Raildudes dad said:
In our state, agriculture and logging are exempted from the statute, mining operations, mineral and aggregate must comply.

Isn't it called the "Husbandry act" or something like that? Or am I all wet...er..I mean green...or...ah.. the heck with it...

ointhead

:beatsme

Dirtman2007 · Jun 19, 2008

Turbo21835 said:
Well Digger, You bring up a great point. Ill also tell ya that it is being strongly encouraged that farmers have green areas on the edges of their fields. Around here the state gov is paying farmers each year to maintain ground cover along ditches, streams, ponds and lakes. They give you a mix of plant seed to drill, then they pay you to keep that ground undisturbed. Only thing you do to it is mow it 1 or 2 times a year. You take a look out in Iowa, those guys are pros at erosion control. Take a look at those fields, every low area where water runs is grass, and stays grass. They also terrace their fields.

Your right, their called meadow strips. These are located in between 2 feilds, at the low side of each feild, where all the water will run to. Being grass it helps filter out all sediments before the water reaches a creek or stream. In some cases the water will run back into their irrigation pond a even more sediment will settle out then. Farmers are good at diverting and shaping the land so that minimum erosion occurs.

stumpjumper83 · Jun 19, 2008

Topsoil is how a farmer makes money. Without it, he is done. The modern farmer does all he can to keep the topsoil in his field, absorbing water, and holding nutrients for his crops. Yes, there are some farmers that farm just because thats what dad did and they are generally the ones using the bad practices. Tillage is a big fuel cost to farmers, most are trying to stay away from it if they can, but in some field conditions it is necessary.

Yes I agree that it looks like the farmers are getting away with murder, but each time their field washes, they loose money from the crops that they had planted there, the nutrients that were there, and the time and expense to put the topsiol back. Erosion is no good for anyone.

CM1995 · Jun 19, 2008

Turbo21835 said:
Around here the state gov is paying farmers each year to maintain ground cover along ditches, streams, ponds and lakes.

I wish the gov't would pay me to put silt fence around my jobsite.

tuney443 · Jun 19, 2008

Well,all is good.Very surprised and happy.My client was wrong--it wasn't the DEC--it was a local gov't guy who monitors any construction in this designated wetlands area.He said everything I propose to do is fine with him--my client just needs to fill out a permit which he'll do Fri.I'll be back at it tomorrow--wish I knew who blew the whistle though--cost me 2 perfect days.

ror76a · Jun 20, 2008

stumpjumper83 said:
Topsoil is how a farmer makes money. Without it, he is done. The modern farmer does all he can to keep the topsoil in his field, absorbing water, and holding nutrients for his crops. Yes, there are some farmers that farm just because thats what dad did and they are generally the ones using the bad practices. Tillage is a big fuel cost to farmers, most are trying to stay away from it if they can, but in some field conditions it is necessary.

Yes I agree that it looks like the farmers are getting away with murder, but each time their field washes, they loose money from the crops that they had planted there, the nutrients that were there, and the time and expense to put the topsiol back. Erosion is no good for anyone.

Maybe the farmers are diffrent in your area but around here no one would put in a filter strip unless they are paid for it. The farmers don't like erosion, but unless it pays or is exremely bad they won't do anything about it. Of course most of the land around here is fairly flat, so that helps too. The part of it that drives me nuts is when I am working next to a tilled feild and I have to have soil erosion permits, etc because if I generate any dust or erosion it would cause big problems. But pay no attention to the suronding worked up 80 acers, that's alright if it causes dust and erosion because it is Ag. :beatsme

tuney443, you are lucky it was just the local guys, around here if the DEQ finds out you don't have a permit I think the fines start at $10,000. The local guys are usually more reasonable.

digger242j · Jun 20, 2008

First, Tuney, I'm glad things worked out for you.

(But since this is an interesting hijack, let's continue...)

Yes I agree that it looks like the farmers are getting away with murder, but each time their field washes, they loose money from the crops that they had planted there, the nutrients that were there, and the time and expense to put the topsiol back. Erosion is no good for anyone.

The thing that I'm having trouble with is not whether farmers are doing a good job of keeping most of their topsoil where they need it, it's that the enforcement is (as far as I know) is aimed at keeping all soil out of the waterways. One does not necessarily equal the other.

Take a look at how much silt gets trapped by the silt fence on a typical construction job. I have a hard time believing that 50 acres of plowed ground, year after year, will allow less silt to find it's way into the river than the few yards that the silt fence on my single family building lot will. :beatsme

stumpjumper83 · Jun 25, 2008

I know that the crop managment people that assist the farmers in their land managment have programs that measure the topsoil loss that occurs. They are able to measure the total tons lost per acre. I used to know the ammount that was unnacceptable, a 16th of an inch comes to mind. By that I mean loosing a 16th of a inch off the whole field. But I'm only guessing at that figure. Just disking a dry field with a cross wind can cause that ammount.

woodchuck2 · Jun 26, 2008

DEC, APA!!! Welcome to the great state of NY. If you have Catails or any hint of water on your land DEC will be on you like a fly to crap.

Wetlands Police

tuney443

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zhkent

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nedly05

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tuney443

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digger242j

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Orchard Ex

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digger242j

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Ray Welsh

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Raildudes dad

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CM1995

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tuney443

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