2006 Cat D5N xl starting difficulties

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

OK fellas my D5N serial # CAT00D5NHAGG02056 has about 3650hours. Im out of Pittsburgh PA and our weather is obviously cold this time avg 28deg this of year but not anything out of the ordinary like some fellas experience.
Machine is on jobsite and not used all day every day. When operator attempts to start machine, he turns key and the diagnostics activate, the Heating element light on the dash comes on for a short period of time. Key is turned and machine turns over and over. He's telling me it's taking around 4 separate attempts for the engine to fire. machine just had a Cat 250hour full service performed by local dealer.
My question is, what type of glow plug or heating element does this machine use? And is it possible that there's something that is malfunctioning? Current ambient Temps today are 35degs which is warm this time of year.
Any advice or things to check on would be much appreciated. Nige you could probably diagnose this in your sleep.
Thank you
Joe

Delmer · Dec 13, 2019

I'll leave the diagnostics to Nige. What I want to know is how long has it been taking 4 attempts to start? Are you sure it's correlated to the temperature?

35 F sounds warm to be experiencing any kind of starting issues like this for a relatively modern, relatively low hour medium sized diesel engine like this. My guess is it should start within 5 seconds down close to zero without any kind of heater.

With short days and long nights, the night time low is more relevant to the temperature the block and battery will be when you try to start it. Has the problem been much worse on days after the really low night time lows?

Mbar · Dec 13, 2019

C7 engine ?

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

Delmer said:
I'll leave the diagnostics to Nige. What I want to know is how long has it been taking 4 attempts to start? Are you sure it's correlated to the temperature?

35 F sounds warm to be experiencing any kind of starting issues like this for a relatively modern, relatively low hour medium sized diesel engine like this. My guess is it should start within 5 seconds down close to zero without any kind of heater.

With short days and long nights, the night time low is more relevant to the temperature the block and battery will be when you try to start it. Has the problem been much worse on days after the really low night time lows?

At night it can get into the teens as far as temp. I'm wondering If the Air intake heater or the relay is malfunctioning. The machine starts fine after it warms up. Yea I'd say it's worse after we have machine sit after very cold nights. All this is very normal, what surprises me is that it's taking multiple attempts of cranking for 20 seconds as per the operators manual which yes I do own and possess.

Mbar · Dec 13, 2019

I would stick a meter or test light on the intake heater stud and check for voltage with some one turning the key on. No voltage check obvious things first, fuse, relay. If it has power then check the heater like you would a glow plug.

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

Mbar said:
I would stick a meter or test light on the intake heater stud and check for voltage with some one turning the key on. No voltage check obvious things first, fuse, relay. If it has power then check the heater like you would a glow plug.

I most certainly will. Appreciate it. Have you personally had any issues with cat engine with similar problem?

Mbar · Dec 13, 2019

I’ve got a c7 in my work truck. It takes a little bit of cranking but I chalk that up to the 350k miles. It being a heui motor I would give a stiction emlimnator a try and steer away from roltella and long oil change intervals. Should see a difference

heymccall · Dec 13, 2019

My Cats are around Pittsburgh, too. No issues with mine.
Look at the water separator assembly. Is the shoulder of the drain plug contacting the water bowl (completely shut)?
As for preheater, it's in the intake. Check for voltage at the red arrow location during preheat. I've changed quite a few relays for the grid heater.

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

Mbar said:
I’ve got a c7 in my work truck. It takes a little bit of cranking but I chalk that up to the 350k miles. It being a heui motor I would give a stiction emlimnator a try and steer away from roltella and long oil change intervals. Should see a difference

I have a C7 in a F750. It's also a bitch to start. what stiction additive do you use? I'm definitely gonna buy some. Been considering this for long time now

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

heymccall said:
My Cats are around Pittsburgh, too. No issues with mine.
Look at the water separator assembly. Is the shoulder of the drain plug contacting the water bowl (completely shut)?
As for preheater, it's in the intake. Check for voltage at the red arrow location during preheat. I've changed quite a few relays for the grid heater.View attachment 206768 View attachment 206769 View attachment 206770

My man thanks alot for the help. That is interesting. Just had Cleveland Brothers do a full PM on her. There is a chance the water sep might be slightly loose. Do you think that would cause a slight leak?

As far as the relay, that's a 12 volt relay correct? Any chance you have part numbers for the coil and the intake heater?
I have parts books. What model Cat Dozer do you have?
Thanks again brother

heymccall · Dec 13, 2019

Mine are all in 328D excavators.
Everything on your machine is 24volt.
I've had issues with the drain plug becoming hard to turn and have found them partially unthreaded (because they would go in no further), and, subsequently, air is introduced into the system before the electric priming pump.
Again, the thumb wheel on the drain plug needs to touch the water bowl boss.

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

heymccall said:
Mine are all in 328D excavators.
Everything on your machine is 24volt.
I've had issues with the drain plug becoming hard to turn and have found them partially unthreaded (because they would go in no further), and, subsequently, air is introduced into the system before the electric priming pump.
Again, the thumb wheel on the drain plug needs to touch the water bowl boss.

Copy that. I figured your parts diagram was of a different cat engine. I'll definitely double check the filter.
Thank you sir.

Mbar · Dec 13, 2019

I’ve used hot shots and arch oil. With far better results with the arch oil. This is my first winter with the c7 so I’m interested to see the results. All uses before were on high Milage 7.3’s

heymccall · Dec 13, 2019

Them pictures are from a D5N AGG parts manual.

Delmer · Dec 13, 2019

Those air intake heaters draw a lot of amps, check the relay, cables, connections, just like you would check a starter and battery cables. Use a volt meter and see where you get voltage when you have somebody turning the key. The battery voltage should drop a couple tenths when it's running, so you can do a quick check right at the battery. If the battery voltage is 25.5 to start, your operator turns the key and it drops to 25.3 for fifteen seconds, then goes back to 25.5, then the grid is working most likely.

guisep3 · Dec 13, 2019

Delmer said:
Those air intake heaters draw a lot of amps, check the relay, cables, connections, just like you would check a starter and battery cables. Use a volt meter and see where you get voltage when you have somebody turning the key. The battery voltage should drop a couple tenths when it's running, so you can do a quick check right at the battery. If the battery voltage is 25.5 to start, your operator turns the key and it drops to 25.3 for fifteen seconds, then goes back to 25.5, then the grid is working most likely.

Thanks for the tip.

Nige · Dec 14, 2019

Just to eliminate it from the diagnosis, what viscosity grade of engine oil did the dealer use when they last serviced it..?

Was the problem there before it was serviced, or has the cold weather come in since the service was performed so it’s impossible to say.?

Does it seem to crank over at the “right” speed when it’s having the starting problem, or does it sound “sluggish”.?

I’ll have to leave others to come up with anything technical. I’m travelling and working off a phone that is nowhere near as smart as it thinks it is....

partsandservice · Dec 14, 2019

Just a suggestion out side of the ambient temperature . If the pulse from one of the position sensors is not picking up extended crank time will result. Also scanning live data would tell you if injection command pressure is equal to measured pressure. Check the suction orings and suction piping to hpop esp if measure pressure is low when cranking cold. On initial start up measured pressure must momentarily exceed command to fire.

guisep3 · Dec 14, 2019

Nige said:
Just to eliminate it from the diagnosis, what viscosity grade of engine oil did the dealer use when they last serviced

Was the problem there before it was serviced, or has the cold weather come in since the service was performed so it’s impossible to say.?

Does it seem to crank over at the “right” speed when it’s having the starting problem, or does it sound “sluggish”.?

I’ll have to leave others to come up with anything technical. I’m travelling and working off a phone that is nowhere near as smart as it thinks it is....

Nige
cat used DEO ULS 10w 30 oil.

Shes been a bit cold blooded. Last winter I used the machine regularly and we had to charge or jump the machine, But the batteries were old and Since replaced those. Cranks fine with a slight sluggish response after multiple attempts as expected. When machine went in for service, Fired up fine but the weather was also unseasonably warm in Pittsburgh PA.
Service was done Nov 4th.
Starter was replaced when I bought the machine with 3400hrs.

guisep3 · Dec 14, 2019

partsandservice said:
Just a suggestion out side of the ambient temperature . If the pulse from one of the position sensors is not picking up extended crank time will result. Also scanning live data would tell you if injection command pressure is equal to measured pressure. Check the suction orings and suction piping to hpop esp if measure pressure is low when cranking cold. On initial start up measured pressure must momentarily exceed command to fire.

Unfortunately I don't have the gauges to check fuel pressure. I'm trying to avoid taking machine back to Cat for cost purposes.
The suggestion you're making, wouldn't that cause a consistent difficult start? Once it fires up and warms up a little, runs fine. A previous post had a suggestion about the water separator being lose causing a vacuum issue which could be relative to what you're suggesting.

2006 Cat D5N xl starting difficulties

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