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Deere 510c slow hydraulics help

690elc

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1990 510c late serial number 772 1990. 4x4 extandahoe, 2 issues maybe someone could help with. Will not engage to 2nd gear. Shifter goes into detent but no motion, no grinding. Runs out fine in other 3 gears.

Very slow hydraulics in all systems except steering. This unit has no reservoir except rear transaxle and all functions are tied together with various priority valves. Heavy chatter on bucket lift. All fluids new, filters and suction screens. I am suspicious of the de- stroke [stroke control valve #RE33524] valve on the front of the main pump. It has a solenoid - works same connected or disconnected. Or the priority valve under the unit. Pump makes pressure and you can use the hoe and bucket if light on the levers. Hate to buy a pump and find it still is slow. I am out in the mountains and no mechanics anywhere near that would know this machine. Any thoughts appreciated
 

Delmer

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ONE priority valve. Simple system, just different, closed center. The priority valve gives priority to the steering while using the loader bucket, it does not shut off power to the hoe, if you're driving and operate the hoe at the same time, the steering will lose power. With that in mind, does the hoe act differently than the loader? Do you hear the chatter of the hydraulic pump at idle? does it go away with steering movement, or loader/hoe movement?

You probably have a suction strainer, have you changed the oil and filter, and cleaned the suction filter? did you find anything in the filter? Don't need to change the oil, you can put it back in when the filter and screen are changed.

Is the charge pump in the transmission or mounted on the front of the radial piston pump? Transmission if I remember right, check that charge pressure, and standby pressure too. There's probably ports for both on the pump, easy to hook up.

Any questions?
 

690elc

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There is no noise or chatter or issue with the hydraulic pump itself [it seems], the chatter shows only on raising the loader at full pull on the valve - the cylinders themselves jerk/vibrate up. They work normally at about 1/2 pull, and have power plenty to lift the unit or a full bucket. Just too slow to be of much practical use. I have a New Holland/Ford 655C and a JD 710d so I know how this should operate and have never experienced this before on many other machines I have owned. It immediately lead me to think oil starvation, so we went through the screens which in this case JD put in absurd locations. The one in the transaxle comes out 2/3 of the way and hits the frame on either side. It had no metallic contamination. One has to bend the filter nearly to a 30' angle to clear it. It feeds a charge pump on the front of the Hyd pump [integrated] that you can look right at. On said charge pump is a stroke control valve and a solenoid that reduces pressure - destrokes- the pump for starting. Also opposite the destroke solenoid is the pressure adjusting screw.

At the moment I am going through the electric schematics before going in the field to test it, thinking perhaps it remains in low pressure with a stuck spool. The unit is new to me and was on a large farm with no history, Appears to be one owner from maintenance tags. The backhoe is operable, meaning I can dig a hole with it and the swing is fairly good. Still about 1/2 that of normal and some chatter on raising the boom - about half that of the loader.

The priority valve, with poor access, has a half moon metal screen and it was clean except for a few small metal particles when we changed the oil. The oil filter housing was filled with emulsified looking oil and had been sitting for some time in heavy weather, so I had hopes that the oil and filter change would improve things. I do save my used oil if not black and run it through a filter cart and use it in the lower level of my pecking order of machines. I do not have the gauges and adapters shown in the manual to do even a pump standby pressure test. This being a older unit and with a closed system different from more current models, I am reluctant to bring out a mechanic that does not know this machine fairly well. Finding the right guy far from a city is difficult, and taking the unit to a dealer is also cost prohibitive. Hoping to narrow down the possibilities before biting the bullet. This machine has a $2000 - $4000 rotary piston pump with the gear charge pump - Lucky me.

Also shifts into 2nd gear but no forward motion or noises. So it is 1-3-4 gears only right now. Runs, starts and drives fine with few leaks, no shorts, or battery drain down. Poor maintenance on wiring and dash, some random cut wires underneath. Looks like fairly poor general maintenance on the rig.
 

Delmer

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The only electrical connection to this hydraulic system is the destroke solenoid, very unlikely that it would stick halfway IMHO. You may be able to remove it easily enough if you're still concerned about the destroke solenoid. There is nothing else electrical in this system, the destroke solenoid is connected to the start circuit.

The fittings should be under $20 at discounthydraulichose dot com. A gauge is cheap enough. The technical operations and test manual might be more, but money well spent. without the charge pressure and standby pressure, we're guessing. You could try the hoe functions to see if something might be leaking, it should get warm in that area of the spool with this system.

This is the same basic system as your 710, when the machine is running but no hydraulics are used, you should hear a noise from the pump (maybe a clicking, fast tapping), that noise should go away when you move the steering wheel, and the engine should change sound noticably if you use a large cylinder. Try the 710 to get a feel for it, then see what happens on the 510.
 

690elc

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Suction hose seems solid, will look, but I think I am not that lucky. I have had the 710d for several years and have yet to even have to take off the grille. Don't hear any clicking from the pump but then its a oversize 6 cylinder engine that might replace the one in my 690e excavator that weighs 44,000#. Absolutely reliable and dry machine, the 710d, and has a hydraulic reservoir unlike the 510c. But it is way too heavy and dangerous off road in the rain. Out riggers are about a foot short for its size and its a death trap for the wrong guy on it. Anyway, it came from a large corporation with full maintenance records, where the 510 had some hayseeds beating it to death.

If the wiring to the solenoid is defective, what is the result on the pump operation? I cannot see any answer in my technical manual or the operation and test manual. They do show a dealer fabricated test rig that incorporates a 3 ohm resistor so I assume the solenoid receives various voltages [?] But then some models of that same unit have a manual destroke without a solenoid. Don't know the theory of operation. I will test that solenoid today with ignition on and off and see what voltage it receives.

As for the backhoe, during operation, there is the usual sound of a load on the pump from the 710 and 510, nothing unusual and no bogging down. There is a leak from the bucket curl spool top when operating, but not excessive. I might build the test rig, but the JD book has terrible photos as to where to connect, and they want a temperature sensor and tach installed as well. I would be just testing pressure without that level of detail. They also show test methods on the priority valve, but I get a headache looking at it. They show a test procedure for the charge pump with a footnote - " It is easier to dismantle the charge pump and measure wear than to install the test hoses " Nice!
 

Delmer

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the destroke solenoid gets power only when the starter is operating, it keeps the hydraulic pump from loading up the starter, as the pressure will build up from zero and the starter would have more load when trying to start the engine (kind of like a pressure washer, relieve the pressure to start). Tractors with smaller pumps got away without a destroke solenoid, some backhoe owners probably got in the habit of turning the steering wheel while cranking to start easier.

Closed center means that the system pressure is highest with nothing moving, the leaks will be internal, the valves should all be closed when not in use. Open center means the pressure is lowest when no functions are activated, and the fluid goes straight through the valves continuously. With the charge pump coupled to the main pump, I can see that it might not be practical to test that pressure. The standby pressure, and leak tests for various valves would be the next things to look at.
 

mg2361

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You definitely want to check both the charge and standby pressures. Testing one without the other will not give a complete picture of what may be wrong. Might want to order (1) AR90378 Plug. That is used to replace the destroke solenoid for testing purposes to eliminate the solenoid as a cause for slow/no hydraulics.
 

690elc

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Location
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You definitely want to check both the charge and standby pressures. Testing one without the other will not give a complete picture of what may be wrong. Might want to order (1) AR90378 Plug. That is used to replace the destroke solenoid for testing purposes to eliminate the solenoid as a cause for slow/no hydraulics.
Thanks for the help. That sounds like a plan. I also notice that there is an option to test at the side of the backhoe valve in my book. Not certain that the solenoid will come out without removing the hydraulic oil cooler. So many simple things that the mfg. could have done to make these user friendly for repairs.
 

Delmer

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Don't like this? try working on a skid steer then see how you like a backhoe.
 

690elc

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The recent explosive love of skid steers baffles me. Never got on that bandwagon. Not to mention those mini excavators that seem only useful in tight urban settings - and cost as much as a TLB
 

690elc

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Messages
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You definitely want to check both the charge and standby pressures. Testing one without the other will not give a complete picture of what may be wrong. Might want to order (1) AR90378 Plug. That is used to replace the destroke solenoid for testing purposes to eliminate the solenoid as a cause for slow/no hydraulics.
When I install this plug, the pump will be destroked and not making pressure? Or with the plug in, the de-stroke is disabled and pump will make pressure? I see a lot of these plugs online, so I guess I am not alone.

Deere calls for a gauge and hose# L36953 which I find for pressure testing, but not the JT05491 Metric connector 7/16-20M37 X 14M x 1.5 orb - which I assume I need to attach the hose to the main pump test port. And the 5000 psi gauge needs what thread on it... if you can help this unwanted hydraulic student. Thanks
 

mg2361

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The pump will be in stroke (making pressure). So it may be hard to start the engine. If so turn steering wheel while cranking to ease the load on the engine.
That number JT05491 is a Deere Servicegard number and can only be bought from Deere. Just go to a hydraulic shop or online (https://www.tompkinsind.com/products/metric-hydraulic-adapters-and-fittings/metric-adapters/7400) and look by size. Gauges usually come with a 1/4 inch male pipe thread and I like using a female diagnostic coupler on it and a whip hose (which will have 1/8 inch male pipe at each end) with a mating coupler. I'll post a picture of my setup later.
 

mg2361

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Here is what I use for pressure testing the radial piston pumps. I use a 300 psi gauge for the charge pressure.

Pressure test.png
 

690elc

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Last edited:

690elc

Active Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
31
Location
Yosemite, California
The pump will be in stroke (making pressure). So it may be hard to start the engine. If so turn steering wheel while cranking to ease the load on the engine.
That number JT05491 is a Deere Servicegard number and can only be bought from Deere. Just go to a hydraulic shop or online (https://www.tompkinsind.com/products/metric-hydraulic-adapters-and-fittings/metric-adapters/7400) and look by size. Gauges usually come with a 1/4 inch male pipe thread and I like using a female diagnostic coupler on it and a whip hose (which will have 1/8 inch male pipe at each end) with a mating coupler. I'll post a picture of my setup later.

Right now I have the wires to the solenoid unplugged so it should be making pressure, but it starts with one automotive battery on the first click. When I get the plug in, I will report back. In the meantime, here are some hydraulic test kits I found. What do think of them? I don't like to support China, but the price is right for a few tests a year.https://www.ebay.com/i/254359062332...83994&itm=254359062332&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2386202
 

mg2361

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If there are no obstructions in front of the test fittings that you could come straight out then those "DIN" style fittings should work. The only issue I see is that the pressure gauges are all to high a rating for checking charge pressure. That kit is designed for excavators.

It has been a few years since I actually touched a 510 but the test ports should be the 2 plugs below with the arrow. I don't remember which one is charge and which one is standby. The pump in the parts page is different than the one in the service manual. The manual shows the earlier serial number pump and the parts page you have is for the later serial number.

510C Test Ports.png
 

690elc

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I just noticed a fairly good leak from the top of the bucket curl spool. Fluid runs out the boot at a rate that needs fixed quick. Never been into a valve. Can this be repaired without taking the valve apart and leaving it on the tractor? Here is the link to the valve https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/navigation/pgId/167304 here is another view. Would the 0-ring and backer #3,4 be the culprit? Kooks like it has to come out the bottom - fun! https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/navigation/pgId/166150

Here is a better view. Would part #7 fix this? https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/navigation/pgId/167504
Thanks
 
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