roosa master dbg questions.

hoping someone might be able to help. having a hard time getting fuel primed after pump change.
short history:
this spring i overhauled the engine and re used the inj pump. ( donor engine for the rebuild also had a pump with it ). the orig pump worked fine. but has pieces of flex ring inside the timing window and leaks from the throttle shaft a good bit. but i used it cause i k ew it worked even tho it leaked and was tired.
started to notice the oil level rising slowly. changed the oil and kept a closer eye on it. after only 8 hours i have gained a good half inch or more in the stick so i suspect the umbrella seals to be leaking and causing the dilution and oil level rise.
since the pump had to come off to change the seals i decided to install the other pump since it looks to be much cleaner and better looking than the orig. has no sign of flex ring pieces.
so i set the pump timing up. and drained the fuel system. removed the pump and the shaft seals.( they looked perfect to me ). installed new seals on the shaft. and installed the other pump on the original shaft. ( checked the pn on the the shafts and they matched) timed pump and connected the fuel lines. opened the fuel shutoff and bled the filters no prob. wasn’t getting fuel in the pump body tho. i had checked and cleaned the inlet screen prior to installing. am getting good flow to the pump inlet. rigged up a cap and put a couple 1-2 psi on the fuel tank and very slowly the fuel comes up in the pump body. is that normal? or should the pump body fill faster. i put a bit of lucas cleaner/ upper cyl lube in the top ( with top cover off) and some clean fuel. but nothing from the inj lines. gave up at 12 am and this morning the body was full. drained the pump via the timing window to check the free movement of the metering valve. seems free and fine. double checked the flow of fuel at the pump inlet and again having an issue priming the pump and getting the inj lines to bled.
should the pump fill slow? cranking the engine did t seem to pump much into the housing.
this pump appears to be in better shape all around. pilot tube has less wear grove. pump body is clean and not covered in 6 layers of paint. but can’t seem to get it to prime/pump. have checked all the things i could think of and find online but hoping the pump guy or someone who knows pumps better can point me the right way on how to prime this pump and if the slow filling is normal even tho there is good supply. return was also checked and clear of obstruction. neither pump have a check valve and appear to be identical fittings so i suspect they never had that. but regardless the return is clear to the tank. don’t know if i should take the orig pump and this pump apart. order a seal kit and attempt to repair the one in the best condition. i can’t afford the 900 dollars the local shop quoted to rebuild one. fairly confident with the stuff i have watched and read about these old pumps that i may be able to do the re seal myself. i have a mic and can measure the rollers. but i don’t claim to know what i’m getting into and if i could tackle it or not. i figure worst case i have to save up and have one of them done professionally and i’m only out the time and 49 bucks for the seal kit if i failed. i’d be sure to have something ready to choke it out if she started and ran away after rebuild hahahaha. hope to get back to working at it tho aft and weekend. would hate to condemn this pump as bad if i’m not doing i’m something right or if there’s something minor going on. the pump has sat for an unknown time. it did have clean fuel inside. or at least decent looking for older fuel. didn’t sit dry at lest. thanks in advance for any insight and help.

well i have fuel to the top of the pump and starting to come out the return fitting. re attached the the return line but still no fuel from the inj lines. starting to worry that this pump has stuck plungers or something more than just something i’m doing wrong. ugh. bang head lol

Does the return fitting pulse fuel when you crank it?

It sure sounds like stuck plungers.. if u go fuel IN & nothing out to the injectors, that's a problem..
I just noticed ur in Canada.. bummer.
IF u look hard enough u can find the rebuild manuals online..
U don't have to follow them step by step seeing the manual is set up for an experienced tech w/ a test stand..& special tools..
Feel free to email me.. just put > at ao l dot com after my screen name in your mail server.

Delmer said:

Does the return fitting pulse fuel when you crank it?

Click to expand...

hi delmer no not really. there is movement of fuel but level of the fuel only rises a tiny bit after each time i rolled the engine. maybe 4-5 second intervals of cranking would raise the fuel in the body a mm or two

thepumpguysc said:

It sure sounds like stuck plungers.. if u go fuel IN & nothing out to the injectors, that's a problem..
I just noticed ur in Canada.. bummer.
IF u look hard enough u can find the rebuild manuals online..
U don't have to follow them step by step seeing the manual is set up for an experienced tech w/ a test stand..& special tools..
Feel free to email me.. just put > at ao l dot com after my screen name in your mail server.

Click to expand...

i was afraid u would say that pg. thanks for the reply. looking like i might be ordering some seals and possibly some internal parts depending what i find inside. need to find a manual before i attempt to open a pump up. stupidly i parked the hoe in a bad spot ( kinda blocks driveway) but it was close to the shop and saved walking back n forth for tools n stuff. lol. now it’s dead in the driveway lol. ah well. guess i can drag it into a better spot with the truck till i get a pump working.

i do have the hoe chained up and the loader raised with angle iron safety’s on the loader cyls so moving it with a strap and a pickup would be easy enuf. prolly easier than re installing the leaky broken flex ring pump back on just to move the tractor and then remove it again lol.

think i need a starter rebuild after all the cranking trying to prime this thing. it’s getting “growly” and loud. and seems to get stuck and only click. remove the starter , ground it , turn key and it works but is growly and noisy. let it spin for a few seconds. took. a bar and rolled the engine a few degrees to make sure the engine would turn and wasn’t loaded by something like the hydraulics causing it to not crank. but turns easy with a big screwdriver so reinstalled starter and works again. do a bunch of cranking and again it acts like it’s hit a big load and stops. then just click click click. remove , ground and test. same. spins but loud growly bearings. still easy to turn with bar so install and works for a bit again lol. guess i’ll be taking the starter to the loacal shop for a rebuild going to have to make up a plate to block the opening into the bell housing to keep critters and crap out while the starter is off and out for repair.

decided to order some parts and attempt to re seal and upgrade my pump. found a seal kit with the upgraded weight basket for 85 dollars. no more flex ring to disintegrate. also ordered the pilot bushing for 20 dollars and a manual for 20 dollars. hopefully between the two pumps i have here and the parts i’m am waiting for from ebay , i can make one good pump.
local pump shop wanted 200 for the basket alone! the quote of 900 to rebuild and another 200 to upgrade the basket seemed insanely high to me for a one hour job for a professional. i’m all for a guy making some profit... but does it all have to be from one customer lol. seriously tho. 100-200 bucks for parts, an hour or even say two hours labour lets say at 100 bucks n hour,... i see no reason for a rebuild including the upgraded basket, to cost any more than like 400 dollars. maybe i’m missing something here but it sure seems like a massive mark up on the bill.
sorry. just wanted to rant for a min lol. hopefully my parts will arrive in a few days and i can attempt to make a sealed up , working pump to run on the old ck. think i’m most worried about removing the pilot bushing and replacing it , more so than the rest of the pump lol. if i’m successful.. i will only have spent around 150 dollars (Can.) on the repair. far cry from 1100 the shop quoted. wish me luck... i might need it

THATS what bugged me so much too.. EVERY poor dirt farmer that walked in the door left w/ an empty wallet.. & THATS WHY I do what I do..
U think the price of a "pump" is bad.??!! try getting a "dealer" mechanic out to pull it & put it back on.!!!
Your looking at $500.00 - $1000.00.. in labor.!!

Theres actually afew more parts that go into 1.. Liner, Blades. Metering Valve, Mv Shim, Delivery Valve, DV Spring, Return Connector.. using OEM parts, is another 100.00..
THEN add 4-5 hrs labor.. & special tools..

Funny, Let me begin by saying that I don't know squat about injection pumps - or much else for that matter but I have read about others who have tried to free up a pump with stuck plungers. One used compressed air through the transfer pressure check port that is on the bottom of the pump - while the motor is cranking. They said Stanadyne recommends 50 - 75 psi but it might take more. The other guy rigged up a hydraulic hand pump and pumped oil - not fuel - through the intake fitting. They each claimed to have some success with their method. Maybe pumpguy or someone can comment on why or why not you should try it besides if the plungers are stuck maybe there is other gunk in there that should be cleaned up as well. Good luck.

p.s. My starter was doing the same thing as yours so I wired in the biggest 4 wire waterproof Bosch style relay I could find. I think it was 30/40 amps with 10 wire leads. It's super cheap, easy, and works great. There's too much voltage drop in the Case wiring. Use the existing solenoid connection to power the relay so it still starts with the key. I can give more details on the wiring if you need it. It won't stop those dry bearings from growling though. ; )

pilot bushing arrived yesterday. just waiting on the seals and book before i begin the tear down. i have found the transfer pump liner and blades online for around 40 dollars but was going to wait and see how my pump internals looked before ordering more parts. hopeful that between the two pumps i have that i will have enuf good internals to make one working pump. but worst case i will have to get more parts on order. thanks for the input guys. hate when my old ck is down. it’s such a useful old tractor and the list of jobs i have for it keeps growing lol. but she’s no good leaking fuel into the oil. can’t risk trashing my fresh engine.

U might wanna get a cam screw bit & bushing on order too..?? A reg. T45 might work but w/o a bushing for the tool, theres a hi probability u'll break the cam screw.. then ur sunk..
I don't begrudge anyone from trying to save a couple hundred bucks but w/o the special tools, your starting off behind..
& depending on which "book" u ordered.. some are written for the field mechanic & some are written for the experienced fuel shop mechanic..
The field book will tell u exactly what u NEED TO REMOVE inorder to fix a pump..
The shop book will do a COMPLETE tear-down of the pump ALONG WITH ALL the components inside the pump.. to which u will need a test stand to reset..
There are SEVERAL manuals that stanadyne published.. in your case you'll need a DB manual.. except the DB manual doesn't cover the latest production pumps & has the info for a 1960's prod. pump..
But the DB2 manual has that info.. which is bizarre because u don't have a DB2 pump.!!??
There were several engine manuf. that published the repair of the inj. pump, for the field mechanic..
IH comes to mind & I think maybe CASE did it too.??
The hardest part I think u'll run into is, pressing the old pilot tube out & getting the new one to stay at the set dimension til the epoxy dries & not flipping the seals when u put the pump back on.
Feel free to contact me direct should u run into trouble.. just put at a o l dot c o m after my screen name, in your home mail server.
Good luck

TPGSC gave me some good info for my first pump tear down.

For starters, I tried the T45 on the cam screw, without turning it down on a lathe, you're stuck with hitting it with a bench grinder. I did the bench grinder...

What I was seeing was due to spacing of teeth, the T45 only want to hit 2 to 3 teeth. I didn't like this. I stuck a 1/4" Allen bit in it and it fit tighter than my ground down T45 bit, and it hit all teeth in the screw evenly. I debated about 20 minutes on what to do, but with pump in vice, solid grip on ratchet head, I gave a good wack to the handle. Popped right loose.

Told the semi local pump shop what I'd done, they replied saying it musta not been tight to begin with...

I'd read about air pressure to free plungers, but after tearing mine apart, I don't think any amount of air woulda freed them. Took some pretty good love taps just to get them out. Kinda rusty residue. Also pistons for advance timing was stuck solid.

I cleaned all those pieces in a pan of diesel fuel with a gray scotchbrite pad. Worked the plungers in and out of their holes until they go side to side on their own weight.

Tractor runs like a dream. But I did end up with a fuel leak that I haven't investigated further, either the fuel line sealing washers, or I messed up the pump head seal.

Overall, pulling the pump and disassembly/reassemble wasn't nearly as big of a deal as I'd tried to talk myself in to.

thanks guys for the input. really appreciate the advise and help. got all the parts i had ordered and the book. i have a lathe i can use to modify a t45 or i can look into the proper socket and sleeve set up. will green locktight aka retaining compound work to glue the new pilot in the housing ? and can anyone tell me the correct position for the tube. the book shows a special tool that sets the spacing but it does not give a dimension for it. can i just measure the amount of sleeve sticking out the end of the housing and match that as close as possible.

I don't think I would use Green Loc-tite..
U NEED a 2part epoxy.. & LET IT DRY BEFORE u continue w/ the build.. {24hrs}
Just measure the P Tube extension if u didn't buy the tool..
Don't forget to transfer the old timing mark on the old weight retainer to the new retainer.

well the pump came apart fairly well. broke the allen head bolt that goes in the end of the 12 point bolt that retains the head. wanted to clean out the check ball inside and the allen busted in half. hopefully i can get the one outta the other pump and use it. removed three set screws from the head. two the same size one one larger one. at first nothing came out. then i saw two pins fall lol well **** i thought. hahahah. one is quite small maybe 1/16 diameter and 3/4 inch long. the other is quite a bit bigger and only seems to go in one spot. hopefully it details these in the book and i can get them back in the right spot.
used a 1/4 allen sockets and the bolt in side the timing advance came out no prob. quick shot with a cordless impact and it came free. going in to get the parts and the book to look into the pins that fell out lol. need to transfer the timing mark onto the new basket. old flex ring was completely done basically nothing left of it but small pieces lol. then to press out and replace the pilot bushing. need to get some epoxy tomorrow for that and then after the epoxy sets with a lil luck i will get this pump working again. maybe a lotta luck hahahah.

So far So good..
U shoulda used a 12pt socket on the head locating screw.. its not made to come apart.

thepumpguysc said:

So far So good..
U shoulda used a 12pt socket on the head locating screw.. its not made to come apart.

Click to expand...

thanks tpg. i did use a 12pt socket when i removed it, but when i realized it had a check ball inside i tried to take it apart to clean it. that’s when it busted. no big deal tho. ill take the one outta the other pump and use it.
pumpguy can u help me with the small pins that came out of the rotor head or whatever it’s proper name is lol. don’t show anything about them in my book. i think they came from the smaller two set screw holes but it’s possible they were both in one of the smaller holes. don’t believe anything was in the larger hole. in the last picture i posted u can see the pins siting on the head near the suspect holes. there is a number engraved near each hole. possibly identifies the pin for that spot ? i’m worried i won’t get them in the right spot cause i didn’t see wher they came out of. thanks in advance.