Clean Hydraulic OIl

Mixing different hyd. fluids or using the wrong one can cause problems too. A lot of parts the warranty is void if the new oil isn't pre-filtered. I was curious how many people actually use a filter cart when adding new oil. Other than large operations I would bet the number is probably less than 10%. Filter carts can be rented for not too much money.

I've been in the business for more than forty years and never seen any warranty language that specifies that new hydraulic oil has to be pre-filtered or the warranty is void. I've run five different shops including two dealer shops and only had the requirement of pre-filtering from a couple of corporate customers. I've never seen where anyone could rent a filter buggy for that matter either. There are companies local that have the capacity to bring in their equipment for a price and do the job.

Widely known that 85-95% of hydraulic failure is the result of contamination. People have even mentioned that replacement components are seldom covered by warranty because effects of contamination were found during inspection. I found 3 local hydraulic shops that rent filter carts just by picking up the phone. Not as fancy as the system Nige showed but essentially does the same job of filtering. Some filter carts have a port so oil samples can be taken to have analyzed by a lab. I rented one from Berendsen Fluid Power who is fairly big in N. America because the shop foreman was very knowledgeable. I asked him about pre-filtering oil and he said the fact that most customers don't is what keeps them in business. How can they warranty a repair if the oil doesn't meet the required ISO spec.? A new machine from a major manufacturer would have pre-filtered oil. My skid steer specifies pre-filtering to 5 micron when adding oil and it only holds about 10 gallons. Kidney loops systems usually recommend the fluid should be cycled 7 times through the system. Berendsen's test bench has an automated kidney loop system that is programmed to run at night but will run for hours at a time. A digital display shows the fluid cleanliness. I think he said it runs every night except on long weekends and the odd holiday. I think your customer is foolish not wanting to at least polish the system through a kidney loop using a filter cart. They're already spending thousands on repairs in only 7000 hours. What's another few hundred to insure the fluid is absolutely clean.

http://www.bfpna.com/Default.aspx

https://www.crossco.com/blog/new-hydraulic-oil-not-clean-hydraulic-oil

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/497/mobile-equipment-contamination

John C. said:

I've been in the business for more than forty years and never seen any warranty language that specifies that new hydraulic oil has to be pre-filtered or the warranty is void.

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I know at our dealership, when we install a new or reman component, the manufacturer will not warrant the part without the oil being filtered and ISO's within spec (new or used oil). Funny thing is if we add auxiliaries or install an manufacturer approved attachment to a brand new machine and need to add oil then we are not required to filter it. ???

Same back in the days when I worked for the supply side rather than being a customer. If you want us to warrant our repair/components then kidney looping of the oil until it is within the OEM-specified acceptable range is included in the price of the job.
New mining machines come these days with a "Certified Clean Machine" tag in the cab showing the ISO Codes of the various compartments as they were when the machine got to the end of the factory production line.

Thanks mg2361 and Nige for verifying that repairs and new components require pre-filtered oil. I'm not a mechanic or big time operator but like to back up what I'm saying. I've heard it said that hydraulic oil can never be too clean.

I wouldn't go as far as using the word "require", and in most cases the oil itself is not pre-filtered - it's put into the machine then the machine is operated while at the same time the oil in the system is being cleaned by an external filter cart plumbed in for that purpose. Doing it that way has the advantage of catching any particles from the oil but also anything from inside machine systems or components that may have been left there as a result of the manufacture/repair process. "No point in putting super-clean oil into a dirty compartment."
Back in my dealer days we did it more to control our own destiny in respect of potential re-do/rework, but the numbers were there even back in those days to back up the fact that cleaner oil could double component life.

One of the big problems I saw with filtering oil was the serious lack of understanding at the upper levels of the company I worked for at the time. I'm talking about maybe twenty years ago. A few plants did get small basic filter carts. Basically just a hand cart with an electric motor pump and a canister pump on it and a couple sections of hose.

No one that I know of was given any specific training on when or how to use the carts. I know one of the first things one was used for at our plant was as a transfer pump to oil out of a crusher oil tank. The oil in those tanks always looked more like metal-flake paint than oil! After that abuse I would not even think of trying to run hydraulic oil through the thing!

I can only hope that at some point upper management gets out of the stone-age in their thinking regards maintenance of equipment. But it is going to take a major learning path from the top down for the company. Especially one that regards the people maintaining the equipment as a cost that they want to reduce as much as possible. Until someone in power comes to view training and education as a investment that will pay dividends I don't see that happening. In the last twenty years I worked for that company the attitudes were going the opposite direction.

Actually I would like to see something official from a part supplier that Welder Dave supplies that specifically says a part won't be warranted unless any oil used in the operation of that component used pre-filtered oil. I would also like to see the definition of pre-filtered in that warranty statement.

You have a couple experienced posters say that filtering the oil to meet manufacturers ISO specs. is required if they expect to get warranty on repairs. I provided a link showing new oil doesn't usually meet the OEM ISO specs. Whether it's pre-filtered or through a kidney loop system is splitting hairs. A filter cart can be used for both. A lot of times the hyd. tank has to be drained to carry out repairs and new oil has to be added. If you have the filter cart why not do both. On some machines every component has to be disassembled to be sure all traces of contamination are removed. Show me where a component manufacturer has given warranty on a replacement component that was caused by contamination. Without spending a lot of time here are a couple lines from a warranty statement that I think would be pretty standard.

"This warranty shall not cover defects caused by improper use or installation, system contamination or failure of the purchaser to perform all regular and normal maintenance specified by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM)."

"OEM startup guidelines and installation procedures must be followed and documented."

So far you are talking out of a paper bung hole. Provide a warranty paper from any manufacturer that says it is required that hydraulic oil has to be pre-filtered or the warranty is void.

Keep digging!

Dave, as far as I'm concerned you're getting the wrong end of the stick because what I said above in post #27 is not what you're saying I said.......

The process I was mentioning before was nothing to do with OEM insistence, Cat in that case, but everything to do with the particular dealer who was trying to minimize re-do costs. Additionally it was certainly not used in any way to insist to customers that there would be no warranty on a particular repair unless a kidney-looping process was performed. The kidney looping cost was included (where appropriate) in the part of the repair quotation covering "commissioning & testing" because cleaning the system was part of the C&T process after repair work had been completed. Generally all repairs carried a warranty, the critical part for the customer afterwards was getting the warranty honoured in the event of a failure.

If a customer had a subsequent failure you could pretty well bet your bottom dollar that the first thing they would be asked to supply to the dealer would be an oil analysis history including ISO Code going back to the time of the previous repair as a minimum, longer than that would be even better. No oil analysis history, much less chance of warranty unless it was VERY obvious that there had been a failure of materials or workmanship in the repair.

Where the OEM involvement warranty for parts generally goes back to them via the dealer. Before honouring parts warranty the OEM would want to see evidence that "all the right things" had been done during the repair, but again there was no insistence from the OEM that the K-L process had to be carried out in order to claim warranty.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you. Oil cleaning is NOT mandatory (AFAIK) to keep OEM (parts) or dealer (labour) warranty in the world of the Big C. It is however extremely helpful in the case of a failure to get assistance with covering the costs of said failure.

Ok a little misunderstanding, I didn't word it right. I was trying to say that after a major repair the component supplier would require oil analysis for warranty claims to prove the oil met their ISO cleanliness levels. Most oil from containers does not meet the required ISO specs. Dealer/installer may have their own requirements too so they aren't on the hook for warranty either. Filtering the oil with an external filter is the best way to insure the oil is as clean as possible. As far as the repairs required for this thread, the customer is not saving any money by not wanting to run the oil through a filter cart.

Actually, I have oil distributors in my area that will dispute any statement that their oil does not meet any manufactures specifications for cleanliness to the point of lawsuits for slander and defamation. So what is your source of information that states most oil from containers does not meet the required ISO specs? I've also had a supplier of bio oil that specifically stated they didn't want any filtering outside of the normal requirements of the manufacturers.
You admit you are not a mechanic. So what are your qualifications to make recommendations over and above those of us who are?

Just because you may find it interesting:
The only way to add hyd. oil to most Tigercat machines is through a hand pump that pushes it through a filter (2 micron, I think, or maybe 5, I forget) and into the tank.

How many do you want? The 2nd is from Parker. I went back and looked and it was in the repair manual that stated new oil must be filtered to 5 micron when replacing components of the hydrostatic drive system. So it appears it is part of the OEM procedure to pre-filter oil. Looks like it is a requirement of Tigercat too. There was no mention anywhere in this thread about what type of oil but if the oil is stored in a controlled environment and comes with a certificate of cleanliness meeting a specific ISO spec. then it is obviously acceptable. Most oil in drums and containers doesn't have a cleanliness certificate. Notice in the last one it talks about pre-filtering oil and specifically states "in some cases, if the level is not achieved the warranty for the equipment may be voided." I never intended to get into a heated debate just trying to point out that new oil isn't necessarily clean enough for a hydraulic system. It seems odd nobody rents filter carts where you are. Looking at the damage in your original post with only 7000 hours, what logic is your customer using to not want to run a kidney loop system? It would be such a low percentage of the actual cost of repairs. I would think a lot of mechanics/ shops would insist on it before even taking on the job.

https://www.crossco.com/blog/new-hydraulic-oil-not-clean-hydraulic-oil

https://www.parker.com/Literature/EMHFF/ConMon/Guide to Contamination Standards.pdf

https://blog.precisionfiltration.co...new-hydraulic-oil-is-not-clean-hydraulic-oil/

http://files.danfoss.com/documents/Design Guidelines for Hydraulic Fluid Cleanliness/520L0467.pdf

https://www.mobilehydraulictips.com/offline-filtration-ensures-clean-running-efficient-machines/

https://mac-hyd.com/blog/hydraulic-contamination-fluid-cleanliness/

https://www.concreteconstruction.ne...-precast/keeping-your-hydraulic-fluid-clean_o

https://www.descase.com/sites/default/files/WP1703_ISO Cleanliness Whitepaper.pdf

http://wegetstuffdone.com/importance-fluid-cleanliness-hydraulic-systems/

Cat’s contamination control requirements that dealers get inspected on yearly require new oil to be filtered.

John C. said:

Actually, I have oil distributors in my area that will dispute any statement that their oil does not meet any manufactures specifications for cleanliness to the point of lawsuits for slander and defamation. So what is your source of information that states most oil from containers does not meet the required ISO specs? I've also had a supplier of bio oil that specifically stated they didn't want any filtering outside of the normal requirements of the manufacturers.

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I do not propose to stir the pot here. I will simply state what I know from my (admittedly 3rd World) experience of large dealer and mining operations. Make of this information what you will.

The easy way to prove whether oil supplied meets OEM Cleanliness standards or not is to pull a sample and have it run through a particle counter. Sometimes the results can be pretty but in my experience they are often not. From bulk oil down to 1-gallon jugs, generally the smaller the container the larger the likelihood that the oil will not meet the Cat Standard of ISO 16/13. I have no idea what other manufacturers use as a standard. From my experience 55-gall drums are particularly prone to contamination, usually because of the way they are stored - nobody ever uses drum covers.

My experience in the course of working both for OEM dealers and for various corporate-level mining customers from the time Contamination Control became a topic of interest in the industry (probably about year 2000+/-) up till now is that most oil suppliers would not guarantee that their oil would consistently meet OEM cleanliness standards of ISO 16/13 or better. I am talking about major oil companies such as Conoco, Castrol, Shell, Mobil, etc. I have no experience of distributors who supply products acting as agents of major oil companies so I cannot comment, but I would have thought that the more a product is handled the more likely it would become contaminated. Having sat in on discussions on lubricant supply contracts with the majors any suggestion of a requirement that all products supplied under the contract be guaranteed to meet OEM cleanliness standards 100% of the time the usual retort was - "We can do that, but it will cost you [extra]".........

Most corporate-level customers don't bother paying the extra to have the oil supplier guarantee to supply "clean" oil, they simply install on-site filtration systems (recirc. or single-pass) in their shops that provides oil at the dispenser nozzle that meets OEM standards, thus putting responsibility on themselves to maintain the required standards of cleanliness. In a number of cases I saw this work done as a joint venture between the lubricant supplier and the customer. Samples of new oil are pulled at a maximum of weekly intervals to ensure that required cleanliness standards are being met.

Just as an example what we receive as bulk from our oil supplier right now is above recommended OEM standards by at least 2 ISO Codes, sometimes more, when it is delivered to site. We filter it in our facility and at the dispenser it meets or exceeds OEM standards.

Question to JD955SC - Is meeting fluid cleanliness standards now one of the conditions that must be met to achieve a Cat 5-Star Dealer Shop Rating..? It was only a "Nice to have" when I left the dealer world, I'm sure it has probably become mandatory by now.

I think sometime in the early 2000's as well it became an issue and that is why the newer owners manuals have in bold print "Always use oil filtered through a 5 micron filter for replenishing the hydraulic reservoir." My machine originally came with a 10 micron filter but the new specs. show the filter required to be a 5 micron. I'm thinking this is in response to issues regarding oil cleanliness and/or warranty claims submitted to the OEM. Kind of along the lines of air filters shouldn't be removed until the indicator says so. I wasn't aware of all the issues regarding hydraulic fluid until I just had to replace a wheel motor. When I started looking into it I couldn't believe how much stuff was out there. Mostly good info but some bad info too like suction strainers should be removed because they cause cavitation.