4bt & a Ve rotary pump

Brandon_M · Jun 11, 2019

First question is does all injection pumps have to timed when installed? If so what does one act like when it’s out of time? The reason I’m asking is I’m in a wheelchair now & can no longer get to where my equipment is as of now. Well I had a replacement 4bt put in the dozer & now it won’t start. It is barely putting fuel out of the pump but has full stream going in. This guy says the pump don’t need to be timed with anything to work properly. I’m not sure about it & im just having to listen to what they say that has worked on because I can’t actually lay eyes on it right now.

funwithfuel · Jun 11, 2019

It most certainly does have to be in time. I'd be leery letting these people perform any more work for me.

Brandon_M · Jun 11, 2019

What are the indications of it being out of time? Would it cause the injector pump to barely put fuel out? Also the reason for the replacement engine is because of a broken camshaft, could a out of time pump cause that?

funwithfuel · Jun 11, 2019

Hard starting, smoke, low power, fuel knock. No, it wouldn't reduce fuel output. Broken cam, something bad happened there.
If this is a complete replacement engine, it should bolt and go, provided it was a running engine to begin with.

thepumpguysc · Jun 11, 2019

IF it was a complete drop in engine, the pump would already be on it..
IF it was a short block & u had to swap parts & pieces, YES the pump HAS TO BE TIMED..
IF the drive shaft of the pump is keyed, you'll might be able to get it close enough to run..
The output of the pump wouldn't be effected from the timing tho..
Its probably more along the lines of>> he doesn't have the power wire hooked up to the shut off solenoid or he has the wrong wire hooked up to it, theres 2 in most cases..
OR u have a short or blown fuse to the wire.. gotta check it w/ a volt meter.. 12 or 24v.. depending on the application & the cpl its either 12 or 24v.
Did u buy a short block & have to swap pumps.?? did u order the engine by CPL.?? because all 4bt's are not alike & take 52 different inj. pumps, depending on cpl #'s..
& some take CAV/Delphi DPA pumps, some take Bosch VE pumps & yet others take Bosch P pumps..

Brandon_M · Jun 12, 2019

Yes thepumpguysc it is a cpl# ordered replacement, as what I would call a long block. It had everything installed but the fuel system had to be installed.

Vetech63 · Jun 12, 2019

That 4 bt has to be timed. If your guy doesn't know that.....I'm with fwf.

alrman · Jun 12, 2019

If a long motor was purchased, the injector pump timing gear would need to have been installed - to the correct timing mark on the gear - there is about 6 of them on a 4BT - depending on the type of pump you have & if the engine is NA or turbo.

Every long motor I have purchased, the front timing cover was not properly assembled to the engine as it needed to be removed for the timing procedure.

Is your fuel pump CAV or Bosch VE (rotary) or the Bosch in line type?

If it is the in line Bosch - then the timing gear position won't matter, as these do not use a woodruff key.
But, it needs to be set at TDC for sure.

funwithfuel · Jun 12, 2019

These guys dont even care. They just bolted the pump on. They told this man,"don't need to be timed." I'm glad that they didn't build the engine. That could have been really interesting.

thepumpguysc · Jun 12, 2019

It REALLY depends if the shaft on the pump is keyed or not.. IF ITS KEYED you'll get dam close.
If its NOT KEYED it aint gonna start & you or "somebody" will have to take it off, send it out to have the timing locked ON THE PUMP.. THEN rotate the engine until the pin UNDER the inj. pump drops in the cam gear..{TDC}
& WHO'S gonna pay for THAT.??
Simply ask them if the pump shaft was keyed or not.. its a simple yes or no answer..
"I" would ask them BEFORE the key is turned..
THAT WAY u can wait for the excuses of why it wont start.. & then refuse to pay them..Lol
Heres hope'n for the best.. Good Luck.

Vetech63 · Jun 12, 2019

thepumpguysc said:
Simply ask them if the pump shaft was keyed or not.

It sounds like your going to have to explain “keyed” to his mechanic.

funwithfuel · Jun 12, 2019

I'll bet that pin is sheared by now.

Vetech63 · Jun 12, 2019

funwithfuel said:
I'll bet that pin is sheared by now.

Will have to explain “pin” also. LOL

RZucker · Jun 12, 2019

thepumpguysc said:
It REALLY depends if the shaft on the pump is keyed or not.. IF ITS KEYED you'll get dam close.
If its NOT KEYED it aint gonna start & you or "somebody" will have to take it off, send it out to have the timing locked ON THE PUMP.. THEN rotate the engine until the pin UNDER the inj. pump drops in the cam gear..{TDC}
& WHO'S gonna pay for THAT.??
Simply ask them if the pump shaft was keyed or not.. its a simple yes or no answer..
"I" would ask them BEFORE the key is turned..
THAT WAY u can wait for the excuses of why it wont start.. & then refuse to pay them..Lol
Heres hope'n for the best.. Good Luck.

Any time I have disassembled a B series with a rotary pump, I have looked for a lock screw on the pump and locked it with the timing pin in the cam gear... easy peasy.

Brandon_M · Jun 12, 2019

It is a Bosch VE rotary pump.

Mark250 · Jun 13, 2019

This is how I time the VE pumps
To time the VE pump. First remove the timing cover and check the timing marks are aligned. Pay attention to the A,B,C marks on the gear. Note some gears do not have multiple timing marks To determine what mark to use check the info plate riveted to the timing cover or refer to the manual
Rotate engine anticlockwise looking from rear of engine, until timing pin can be pushed in to timing hole.
Remove plug from VE pump in the centre rear of pump and install dial indicator.
loosen pump retaining bolts.
Rotate pump until dial indicator stops moving and zero dial indicator
On the info plate there is a timing dimension, rotate pump until dial indicator reading equals dimension on timing info plate
lock up pump retaining bolts
Don't forget to retract timing pump or you will shear off the nose of the pin
Mark

4bt & a Ve rotary pump

Brandon_M

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funwithfuel

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Brandon_M

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funwithfuel

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thepumpguysc

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Brandon_M

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Vetech63

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alrman

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funwithfuel

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thepumpguysc

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Vetech63

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funwithfuel

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Vetech63

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RZucker

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Brandon_M

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Mark250

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