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580se Power Shuttle & TC Advice

swampman

swampman

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So I decided to pull the shuttle out of my 580se over the weekend. Backhoe has always had an issue with struggling to move once warmed up in either fwd or reverse. So far I have, pulled the shuttle, and torn it down. I haven't seen any issues at all to lead me to believe that the shuttle was the culprit. Fwd & reverse clutch packs look brand new, no visible wear on charge pump, no broken bellville washer, etc. What do the shuttle experts on here think was the problem?

I plan on installing a rebuild kit and reman TC since I have gotten this involved. Any pointers for a newbie? What to do, or most importantly, what NOT to do? What tolerances to maintain, etc.
 
alrman

alrman

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A stall test before you pulled it apart may have helped some diagnostics. Maybe even a pressure test.

When you say "the machine struggled to move once warmed" -
  1. Do you mean the engine reved at high rpm & the machine was slow to move? or was the engine struggling?
  2. Were you operating the machine in 1st or 2nd gear when this lack of drive was evident?
  3. Did you ever notice if the engine almost stalled out when you drove the loader into a heap to fill the bucket? (Hopefully in 1st or 2nd gear)
 
swampman

swampman

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The machine always ran with plenty of power when cold, but once you worked it for a while (30mins - 1 hr) it would start "slipping". Meaning engine reved at high rpm and machine was slow to move. Engine never struggled. Most always in 1st or 2nd gear, obviously got worse in the higher gears. Yes, I have noticed that engine would pull down quite a bit when driving into a pile.

For what its worth, this has been occurring for quite some time (10-12 years). But the last few years it has gotten ridiculous, almost to the point that the machine is unusable if you have to travel any distance. I was fully expecting the forward clutches to be toast, but to my surprise, everything looks brand new inside there. Very little trash in the sump, just a few metal shavings that led me to dig a little deeper.
 
alrman

alrman

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If the engine "pulls down" excessively while driving into a pile, that would usually indicate that the torque converter was at fault.
However, most times that would also show the forward pack to have been running hot due to excessive load causing slippage.... not so in your case.

Is there much wear at the transmission housing where the fwd/rev lever stops on the housing? Perhaps causing over selection of the control spool & misalignment of oil ports?
Is there any wear noticeable where the oil control rings run in the forward piston carrier or the housing for the planetary gear?
Was the control valve easy to remove? Any scoring in the housing/bore where it operates?

Park brake has not been dragging?
 
swampman

swampman

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I have not investigated the control valve yet nor the parking brake. This issue has been ongoing for at least 12 years, so I was expecting catastrophic failure somewhere but have yet to locate it
 
T

Tinkerer

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alrman said:
If the engine "pulls down" excessively while driving into a pile, that would usually indicate that the torque converter was at fault.
However, most times that would also show the forward pack to have been running hot due to excessive load causing slippage.... not so in your case.
Is there much wear at the transmission housing where the fwd/rev lever stops on the housing? Perhaps causing over selection of the control spool & misalignment of oil ports?
Is there any wear noticeable where the oil control rings run in the forward piston carrier or the housing for the planetary gear?
Click to expand...
Could you provide answers to those questions so Alrman can help you further ?

You may have a couple of issues going on.
 
swampman

swampman

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Tinkerer said:
Could you provide answers to those questions so Alrman can help you further ?

You may have a couple of issues going on.
Click to expand...

Sure, I will pull it down a bit further over the weekend and report on my findings.
 
swampman

swampman

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Update:

1. I did not see any excessive wear on the housing where fwd/rev lever stops, could definitely tell where it was bottoming out, but in my opinion, nothing excessive
2. Did not see any noticeable wear where oil control rings run
3. Control valve came out fairly easily, no excessive wear in the bore

I'm thinking that the shuttle was not the culprit. Since I have gotten this involved, I am going to go ahead and rebuild shuttle. Should I replace converter with reman?

After it get it together, I will investigate the brakes.
 
T

Tinkerer

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Yes, definitely replace the torque convertor ! From what you described previously, that is at least part of your problems.
Check the flex plate very carefully for cracks. If it were mine I would replace it.
 
alrman

alrman

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swampman said:
Update:

1. I did not see any excessive wear on the housing where fwd/rev lever stops, could definitely tell where it was bottoming out, but in my opinion, nothing excessive
2. Did not see any noticeable wear where oil control rings run
3. Control valve came out fairly easily, no excessive wear in the bore

I'm thinking that the shuttle was not the culprit. Since I have gotten this involved, I am going to go ahead and rebuild shuttle. Should I replace converter with reman?

After it get it together, I will investigate the brakes.
Click to expand...

That's great, but unfortunately it doesn't shed any light on your problem.....:rolleyes:

Re replacing the torque converter, what do you have in mind? Buying a new one? or having yours reconditioned?

I would take a good look at the charge pump also, it maybe losing efficiency as oil temp rises.
Some Ebay repair kits include a new pump, maybe worth considering.
 
swampman

swampman

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I plan on buying the kit that includes the charge pump and a reman converter. Was planning on buying from brokentractor.com. They seem to have the best price that I have found.
 
swampman

swampman

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So, the project has been on hold for the last couple of weeks but I did receive all the parts to rebuild. Next step is to install the reman torque converter. What are some tips you can give me as far as aligning the TC on the flywheel? By the way, the bolts that hold the flexplate to the flywheel were a bear to remove. About half of the bolt head was behind the TC making it almost impossible to get a socket on. Stripped out 2 of the 6 bolts while removing the old TC. New bolts on the way. Any tips to avoid stripping the new bolts when installing?
 
alrman

alrman

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swampman said:
What are some tips you can give me as far as aligning the TC on the flywheel? By the way, the bolts that hold the flexplate to the flywheel were a bear to remove. About half of the bolt head was behind the TC making it almost impossible to get a socket on. Stripped out 2 of the 6 bolts while removing the old TC. New bolts on the way. Any tips to avoid stripping the new bolts when installing?
Click to expand...

99.9% of people do not have the flexplate alignment tool.
I worked at a dealer for 10yrs & never saw one.......
Attach the flexplate to the converter, nip the bolts, use a vernier at 90 degree angles to centralise the flexplate to the spigot.
Tighten the bolts - recheck the alignment to be sure nothing moved during tightening.

If you use 3/8" drive sockets with a wobble drive extension, the fitment of those 5/16" mounting bolts to the flywheel is alot easier. ;)
 
5

580bob

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I got one made it myself used specs from tools list in service manual seen many spigots cracked on converters from guys just throwing them in spend time and do it right easy to make tool
 
Coy Lancaster

Coy Lancaster

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Install the flex plate with two bolts, while the bolts are still loose turn the flex plate against the bolts and then tighten the other two bolts you're as centered as you can be.
 
swampman

swampman

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Ha, no i haven't. I have all parts in hand, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
 
swampman

swampman

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Tinkerer said:
Have you made any progress since June 13th ?
Click to expand...

Put shuttle together over the weekend. Went together surprisingly trouble free thanks to alot of great advice on here. Haven't installed on the machine yet, not really sure how i'm gonna tackle that thing by myself. Thinking of making a bracket to install on floor jack, but haven't finalized "design" of that yet.
 
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