Dumping a frameless dump trailer

Willis Bushogin · May 12, 2008

First time I have posted a question, now its my turn to ask questions.
Question: I am buying a 39ft frameless dump trailer, for my road tractor. I know the stories about these trailers, but because of workload, I kinda am forced to buy it now, to be able to take a job in a few weeks. The job is hauling demo house debris, from a government complex.
I have some pointers, but just asking for ideas.

stumper120 · May 12, 2008

get good insurance. :usa make sure the person loading it keeps the demo load even in the trailer packs it in evenly. and oh ya get good insurance. put a 1/2 inch solid steel deck plate behind the 5th wheel to cover the space over your axels and tail lights. cut the stops off the end of the air slide 5th wheel , and learn how to shut off the pto, hit the air slide and start grabbing gears in a hurry.

they realy arent that bad if you are carefull.

Willis Bushogin · May 12, 2008

frameless trailer

stumper120 said:
get good insurance. :usa make sure the person loading it keeps the demo load even in the trailer packs it in evenly. and oh ya get good insurance. put a 1/2 inch solid steel deck plate behind the 5th wheel to cover the space over your axels and tail lights. cut the stops off the end of the air slide 5th wheel , and learn how to shut off the pto, hit the air slide and start grabbing gears in a hurry. they realy arent that bad if you are carefull.

I know what you mean about insurance.
Please explain about the other things
Thanks

Bob Horrell · May 12, 2008

Be sure to dump on level ground and regularly check your rear tires. Since all the weight is on the rear 4 tires, if one of them is low or flat, it is easy to lay the trailer and truck over. You might want to get an RV level guage and install it in the cab so you have an idea of the angle you are on when dumping.
I saw a frameless go over once due to a flat tire on the outside rear set.

JDOFMEMI · May 12, 2008

What Bob says about the tires, and another trick is to get a couple of small steel plates, 4" or so square, one 1/2", and one 1" thick. Hang these on a chain in the center of the rear axle. If a dumpsite is pretty level, but off just a little, place the right size shim between the axle and the stops to level the trailer when dumping.
Only do this to correct SMALL amounts of out of level.

RonG · May 13, 2008

I have a lot of hours driving dump trailers and every single time but once that I have seen them lay over it could have been prevented if the driver had been in the cab while dumping.That is not the time to take a squizzle,scratch your a** and marvel at what a great driver you are to be trusted with such a big rig!
Dumping is a piece of cake once you learn the basics.Once you start the dump routine you can see the tub shift in your mirrors the moment it picks up from its resting place.If you have a frame under it the tub will clear the frame on one side or the other first if out of level.You can see that out of the back window if you have one.
Try to keep the rig straight while dumping until you get comfortable with it.
The biggest tip I can give is probably to take advantage of your dump site and and level the trailer by backing the trailer wheels onto the edge of the pile on the low side or in some cases you may need to trip the tailgate and make a little mound to back up on to level yourself up.You will amaze yourself at the places that you can dump when you learn the basic principles.Make the dumpsite work for you!!
With the frameless dumptrailer you can lock the trailer wheels or the tractor wheels for the dump cycle,never both of course but again,the principle is the same.
If you have a choice load the bulk of the product to the rear of the trailer to keep the center of gravity lower but not too much against the rear gate as it will bind and the dogs will not release when you flip the air gate control.
Tire pressure affects the dump cycle so know where you stand there if you have to favor one side or the other when dumping.
I am sure I missed some things here but ROP and others can add what I missed so rule number one is once you trip that air gate get back in the cab!!!You will have plenty of chances to abort the dump cycle if things are not going well but you cannot do it with the zipper in your hand!!
I have also seen days that we had to park the trucks in high wind so that can be a factor too......and the trailer that flipped while the driver was dumping?Frozen material....one side of the load slid out and the other did not.Nobodies fault really.
Once you learn the basics it is just another boring job.LOL.Ron G

Willis Bushogin · May 13, 2008

dumping a frameless

RonG said:
I have a lot of hours driving dump trailers and every single time but once that I have seen them lay over it could have been prevented if the driver had been in the cab while dumping.That is not the time to take a squizzle,scratch your a** and marvel at what a great driver you are to be trusted with such a big rig!
Dumping is a piece of cake once you learn the basics.Once you start the dump routine you can see the tub shift in your mirrors the moment it picks up from its resting place.If you have a frame under it the tub will clear the frame on one side or the other first if out of level.You can see that out of the back window if you have one.
Try to keep the rig straight while dumping until you get comfortable with it.
The biggest tip I can give is probably to take advantage of your dump site and and level the trailer by backing the trailer wheels onto the edge of the pile on the low side or in some cases you may need to trip the tailgate and make a little mound to back up on to level yourself up.You will amaze yourself at the places that you can dump when you learn the basic principles.Make the dumpsite work for you!!
With the frameless dumptrailer you can lock the trailer wheels or the tractor wheels for the dump cycle,never both of course but again,the principle is the same.
If you have a choice load the bulk of the product to the rear of the trailer to keep the center of gravity lower but not too much against the rear gate as it will bind and the dogs will not release when you flip the air gate control.
Tire pressure affects the dump cycle so know where you stand there if you have to favor one side or the other when dumping.
I am sure I missed some things here but ROP and others can add what I missed so rule number one is once you trip that air gate get back in the cab!!!You will have plenty of chances to abort the dump cycle if things are not going well but you cannot do it with the zipper in your hand!!
I have also seen days that we had to park the trucks in high wind so that can be a factor too......and the trailer that flipped while the driver was dumping?Frozen material....one side of the load slid out and the other did not.Nobodies fault really.
Once you learn the basics it is just another boring job.LOL.Ron G

Thanks for the replies, We have 28ft frame dump trailers, but this big 39ft frameless has got me thinking about all the stories I hear. One of them is, never take a frameless to a disposal site.
Thanks again for the tips

RonG · May 13, 2008

The largest dump trailer I have used was a Freuhauf triaxle with a 32 foot tub.My company had three of those and when we were not busy with mixer work we were hauling material for the plant.We were pulling them with DM600 Macks with the first Maxidynes they made.We had a Heil frameless dump trailer as well so I have had experience with those too......One guy I worked for had a a 26' Freuhauf with a nice black longnose KW and we used that for quite a while as a site truck and I used to load that until not one more pebble would stay on it with never a problem with it.Of course you pick your spots but that is the case with any dump trailer.
If you load the debris in your trailer properly and use good judgement I think you will be ok with it.Good luck.Ron G

iron kid · May 13, 2008

I was thinking of getting side dump or a short end dump
I live in Iowa so i have to look in to the weights that they can haul
But was just thinking that i have a lowboy truck sitting more than half the time and rent dump trucks all the time
I hate owning trucks but u have to have them
Just wondering what u guys think is a better choice

Cat248B · May 13, 2008

Willis:

I just sold out of the end dump business before going back into 100% equipment operation. I did it for years, highsides, lowsides etc. in the demolition industry. It's not bad at all, though I have seen some pretty aweful accidents, some fatal. Like some of the others said in this thread, accidents can be prevented. I pulled a 40' highside for the last yew years here in So Cal. before I sold out. I've pulled it all, but the last few years were strictly HS's. I have seen it all!

Just be careful in all aspects of the job. Know your weights and where you are placing them. ALWAYS...I mean ALWAYS dump in a straight line, on level ground. Depending on the job type, you may run into sites where you can't be straight while dumping and more often than not, you'll be on inclines or uneven at dump sites. After you gain experience and a feel for what is happenning, you'll be able to dump anywhere.

I regularly dumped at edges (cliffside), on uneven grounds etc. You just need to be one with your equipment. Know what angles you need to use to your advantage while dumping. Where to place your tractor/trailer. Sometimes a bunch of operators would be dumping and I'd be the one that backs in at a completely different angle. I'd always be level though. Never had an accident, ever. Again, know your angles and your placement. It's important to know your weights. The bulk of your weight will be in the nose of the trailer. Keep this in mind when lifting through the dump cycle as weights can be shifty.

Some things to be aware of:

Tire pressure (especially on dump axle) But important all around!

Position of weights/load

Position of 5th wheel

Angles of dump site

Angles of truck/trailer on dump site (positioning to find the level)

Wind (yes...wind)

Type of grounds you're dumping on. (ground gives) You can park on hard ground but when you lift, more weight is on that surface and it can and does sometimes shift. Be ready for that.

Again, Know your angles. (sounds weird) Know where you need to place your equipment to become level when you're not on optimum dumping grounds.

Also, learn how to correct angles as you reverse. This can and will save you at some point.

Always use just the trailer brakes when dumping and let your tractor roll into the load being dumped. Remember, where you park your trailer to be dumped is where you need to dump it.

Look around before you back in. (same for a loading area) Be aware of wires, trees, the grounds etc.

DON'T TRUST ANYBODY BUT YOURSELF! Spotters/flagmen can get pushy. Respect others but always remember that only YOU know where it's safest to dump your load. You are responsible.

Don't be in a hurry. Speed will come with experience. It will all come together in due time.

If you have dump valves on the trailer, dump them before dumping. If it's really bad, dump the tractor as well.

Be sure that your 5th wheel is blocked for end dump pulling. NO SLACK!

Have good tires! Keep an eye on your pressures. Check em COLD, BEFORE you start your day.

Be aware of objects that can and WILL become stuck in between your duals. Many times when reversing to the dump spot, you will pick things up in your tires. Be aware of this. Remember that tires bow. When you dump, theres a lot of weight coming down on that axle.

These are just a few basics. I don't want to tell you any tricks of the trade, these things you will learn in time! Ask questions if you're not certain. There is so many things I can type here. Many, Many more things to keep in mind. This aught to help though. Remember, you'll learn through trial & error (just keep the error to a minimum ) The tricks will come with experience. These are just a few of the basics.

Feel free to pm me or ask any questions at all. End-Dumps have been my lively-hood for many years. This has been my income, my business. Glad to help if I can.

Willis Bushogin · May 13, 2008

frameless trailer

Thanks to everyone, for the comments. Great advise
Cat248B, Great looking rig

LowBoy · May 13, 2008

I second that emotion what Cat248B says. I was in the end dump business for years too, and had mostly frames but my favorite trailer to me was my 36' Mate aluminum frameless.
Remember, the drawbars are attached to the 5th wheel plate, and half way up the trailer, acting as a stabilizer. Plus, you're shortening up the wheelbase as it climbs, lowering your center of gravity.
Best piece of advice I would share: Make sure the path your wheels are in once you're backed into your spot to dump is level and free of potholes/low spots. Lock the trailer brakes and let the tractor back up, not the other way around. I've literally dumped my frameless on slight angles where guys with no experience and no cahunas thought I was crazy, but it goes back to the center of gravity theory and the stabilization you get from those drawbars.
I hauled bails of scrap metal in mine for years (along with many other commodities,) and those buggers stay still until you're at the last stage before they slide. The pucker factor is quite high in those cases...

I miss my frameless wagon. Really liked the light tare weight compared to the frame-types I owned.
There's many aftermarket frameless trailer 5th wheel plate lock kits available nowadays. When I was in it, most guys were just welding 4 2" square tube blocks on the slider stands and jamming the plate level that way. Only thing is, you're in the frameless dump business exclusively unless you take the gas axe and mow the blocks off again.
I went the cleaner route and ordered the kit from Ti-Brook. It's 2 1 1/2" hardened pins and 4 bushings. The two bushings get welded to the underside of the plate up front, the other two get welded to the slider stands, insert pins and cotter pins, and you're in business.
Good luck.

Willis Bushogin · May 13, 2008

frameless trailer

LowBoy said:
I second that emotion what Cat248B says. I was in the end dump business for years too, and had mostly frames but my favorite trailer to me was my 36' Mate aluminum frameless.
Remember, the drawbars are attached to the 5th wheel plate, and half way up the trailer, acting as a stabilizer. Plus, you're shortening up the wheelbase as it climbs, lowering your center of gravity.
Best piece of advice I would share: Make sure the path your wheels are in once you're backed into your spot to dump is level and free of potholes/low spots. Lock the trailer brakes and let the tractor back up, not the other way around. I've literally dumped my frameless on slight angles where guys with no experience and no cahunas thought I was crazy, but it goes back to the center of gravity theory and the stabilization you get from those drawbars.
I hauled bails of scrap metal in mine for years (along with many other commodities,) and those buggers stay still until you're at the last stage before they slide. The pucker factor is quite high in those cases...
I miss my frameless wagon. Really liked the light tare weight compared to the frame-types I owned.
There's many aftermarket frameless trailer 5th wheel plate lock kits available nowadays. When I was in it, most guys were just welding 4 2" square tube blocks on the slider stands and jamming the plate level that way. Only thing is, you're in the frameless dump business exclusively unless you take the gas axe and mow the blocks off again.
I went the cleaner route and ordered the kit from Ti-Brook. It's 2 1 1/2" hardened pins and 4 bushings. The two bushings get welded to the underside of the plate up front, the other two get welded to the slider stands, insert pins and cotter pins, and you're in business.
Good luck.

Thanks for, the info about the blocks, I forgot about this, never used a frameless.
Again Thanks to all

Willis Bushogin · May 14, 2008

frameless trailer

Cat248B said:
Willis:

I just sold out of the end dump business before going back into 100% equipment operation. I did it for years, highsides, lowsides etc. in the demolition industry. It's not bad at all, though I have seen some pretty aweful accidents, some fatal. Like some of the others said in this thread, accidents can be prevented. I pulled a 40' highside for the last yew years here in So Cal. before I sold out. I've pulled it all, but the last few years were strictly HS's. I have seen it all!

Just be careful in all aspects of the job. Know your weights and where you are placing them. ALWAYS...I mean ALWAYS dump in a straight line, on level ground. Depending on the job type, you may run into sites where you can't be straight while dumping and more often than not, you'll be on inclines or uneven at dump sites. After you gain experience and a feel for what is happenning, you'll be able to dump anywhere.

I regularly dumped at edges (cliffside), on uneven grounds etc. You just need to be one with your equipment. Know what angles you need to use to your advantage while dumping. Where to place your tractor/trailer. Sometimes a bunch of operators would be dumping and I'd be the one that backs in at a completely different angle. I'd always be level though. Never had an accident, ever. Again, know your angles and your placement. It's important to know your weights. The bulk of your weight will be in the nose of the trailer. Keep this in mind when lifting through the dump cycle as weights can be shifty.

Some things to be aware of:

Tire pressure (especially on dump axle) But important all around!

Position of weights/load

Position of 5th wheel

Angles of dump site

Angles of truck/trailer on dump site (positioning to find the level)

Wind (yes...wind)

Type of grounds you're dumping on. (ground gives) You can park on hard ground but when you lift, more weight is on that surface and it can and does sometimes shift. Be ready for that.

Again, Know your angles. (sounds weird) Know where you need to place your equipment to become level when you're not on optimum dumping grounds.

Also, learn how to correct angles as you reverse. This can and will save you at some point.

Always use just the trailer brakes when dumping and let your tractor roll into the load being dumped. Remember, where you park your trailer to be dumped is where you need to dump it.

Look around before you back in. (same for a loading area) Be aware of wires, trees, the grounds etc.

DON'T TRUST ANYBODY BUT YOURSELF! Spotters/flagmen can get pushy. Respect others but always remember that only YOU know where it's safest to dump your load. You are responsible.

Don't be in a hurry. Speed will come with experience. It will all come together in due time.

If you have dump valves on the trailer, dump them before dumping. If it's really bad, dump the tractor as well.

Be sure that your 5th wheel is blocked for end dump pulling. NO SLACK!

Have good tires! Keep an eye on your pressures. Check em COLD, BEFORE you start your day.

Be aware of objects that can and WILL become stuck in between your duals. Many times when reversing to the dump spot, you will pick things up in your tires. Be aware of this. Remember that tires bow. When you dump, theres a lot of weight coming down on that axle.

These are just a few basics. I don't want to tell you any tricks of the trade, these things you will learn in time! Ask questions if you're not certain. There is so many things I can type here. Many, Many more things to keep in mind. This aught to help though. Remember, you'll learn through trial & error (just keep the error to a minimum ) The tricks will come with experience. These are just a few of the basics.

Feel free to pm me or ask any questions at all. End-Dumps have been my lively-hood for many years. This has been my income, my business. Glad to help if I can.

What do you mean, make sure the fifth wheel is setup for end dumping?
Need instructions, for welding the stop blocks, I guess you weld the blocks in place, in the position if the trailer was hooked up, so the FW, will always be at that position. CORRECT????

Thanks Guys

busdrivernine · May 14, 2008

something to think about is getting a liner for your bed will really be amazed at the difference it will make loads will slide out easierand a lot of times you will not have to go al the way up . the best trailer I loved to pull when haulling sand and gravel to the concrete palnt was a LUFKIN Ultra lite . In most cases you could unoad with out having to get the frt axle off the ground . Good luck and remember to try to be as level as possible and get the load out of the nose of the trailer asap and if you see it leaning floor the throttle

JDOFMEMI · May 14, 2008

Willis Bushogin said:
What do you mean, make sure the fifth wheel is setup for end dumping?
Need instructions, for welding the stop blocks, I guess you weld the blocks in place, in the position if the trailer was hooked up, so the FW, will always be at that position. CORRECT????

Thanks Guys

Willis

I am not the expert here on this, but have had a couple of end dumps, and the fifth wheel should be level with the frame when blocked for end dumps.

I highly reccomend the kind mentioned above, so you can pull 4 pins and go to a normal trailer when you need to.

LowBoy · May 17, 2008

Yes, for a frameless trailer, the fifth wheel has to be locked into the level position. They sell these weld on pin kits at most all trailer dealers nowadays. It consists of a set of 4 steel bushings, and 2 (usually 6" long X 1 1/2" diameter) hardened pins. 2 bushings get welded to the underneath of the plate, and 2 get welded to the sliders or stands that the 5th wheel sits on. You simply insert pins when pulling your frameless, and remove them to go to normal trailers.

Some people cheat like I said previously, and weld 4 blocks on each corner of the stands, but again, you're dedicated now...Unless you carry the Italian Hot Wrench around with you to mow them off as needed.

joispoi · Jul 25, 2008

Cat248B said:
Willis:

I just sold out of the end dump business before going back into 100% equipment operation. I did it for years, highsides, lowsides etc. in the demolition industry. It's not bad at all, though I have seen some pretty aweful accidents, some fatal. Like some of the others said in this thread, accidents can be prevented. I pulled a 40' highside for the last yew years here in So Cal. before I sold out. I've pulled it all, but the last few years were strictly HS's. I have seen it all!

Just be careful in all aspects of the job. Know your weights and where you are placing them. ALWAYS...I mean ALWAYS dump in a straight line, on level ground. Depending on the job type, you may run into sites where you can't be straight while dumping and more often than not, you'll be on inclines or uneven at dump sites. After you gain experience and a feel for what is happenning, you'll be able to dump anywhere.

I regularly dumped at edges (cliffside), on uneven grounds etc. You just need to be one with your equipment. Know what angles you need to use to your advantage while dumping. Where to place your tractor/trailer. Sometimes a bunch of operators would be dumping and I'd be the one that backs in at a completely different angle. I'd always be level though. Never had an accident, ever. Again, know your angles and your placement. It's important to know your weights. The bulk of your weight will be in the nose of the trailer. Keep this in mind when lifting through the dump cycle as weights can be shifty.

Some things to be aware of:

Tire pressure (especially on dump axle) But important all around!

Position of weights/load

Position of 5th wheel

Angles of dump site

Angles of truck/trailer on dump site (positioning to find the level)

Wind (yes...wind)

Type of grounds you're dumping on. (ground gives) You can park on hard ground but when you lift, more weight is on that surface and it can and does sometimes shift. Be ready for that.

Again, Know your angles. (sounds weird) Know where you need to place your equipment to become level when you're not on optimum dumping grounds.

Also, learn how to correct angles as you reverse. This can and will save you at some point.

Always use just the trailer brakes when dumping and let your tractor roll into the load being dumped. Remember, where you park your trailer to be dumped is where you need to dump it.

Look around before you back in. (same for a loading area) Be aware of wires, trees, the grounds etc.

DON'T TRUST ANYBODY BUT YOURSELF! Spotters/flagmen can get pushy. Respect others but always remember that only YOU know where it's safest to dump your load. You are responsible.

Don't be in a hurry. Speed will come with experience. It will all come together in due time.

If you have dump valves on the trailer, dump them before dumping. If it's really bad, dump the tractor as well.

Be sure that your 5th wheel is blocked for end dump pulling. NO SLACK!

Have good tires! Keep an eye on your pressures. Check em COLD, BEFORE you start your day.

Be aware of objects that can and WILL become stuck in between your duals. Many times when reversing to the dump spot, you will pick things up in your tires. Be aware of this. Remember that tires bow. When you dump, theres a lot of weight coming down on that axle.

These are just a few basics. I don't want to tell you any tricks of the trade, these things you will learn in time! Ask questions if you're not certain. There is so many things I can type here. Many, Many more things to keep in mind. This aught to help though. Remember, you'll learn through trial & error (just keep the error to a minimum ) The tricks will come with experience. These are just a few of the basics.

Feel free to pm me or ask any questions at all. End-Dumps have been my lively-hood for many years. This has been my income, my business. Glad to help if I can.

Great looking rig and good post. What´s the tare weight on truck and trailer in the pictures?

RollOver Pete · Jul 25, 2008

Hey Cat248B..
Truck looks familiar.
Ever do any work in the low desert for Boone, Nard, Belbeck or any of the many brokers?
I may have loaded you if you pulled a low side.
Rock...big rock from Simon to Big Horn 2000-2001ish.

?
Why did ya get out of trucking other than the obvious?
I sold my transfer dump in 96.
Also, I pulled one of Christoffersons end dumps hauling slag from So Cal to Goodyear back in the day.

Anyways, welcome to the board :drinkup

Jammar7 · Aug 19, 2009

Yea! I finally found it..... WIND! Where I am, we always dump a frameless like we're landing on an aircraft carrier...... into the wind baby! Well, or at least with it... never a side wind.

Solid ground, carry shim plates, yep tires! I agree you guys are covering pretty well. We use the exhaust as a sight.... if the trailer starts going out of line with the stack... bring down, and FAST!

Hauling demo eh? Hope you're getting a two-way or a barn door gate style.

Dumping a frameless dump trailer

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