HELP! 1986? Case 580D Construction King Backhoe.

hosspuller · May 13, 2019

MikeM22: I'll try to explain what Pumpguysc is trying to tell you. He is in the business of rebuilding Injection pumps so he's being neutral. I have nothing to gain from your problem. Which I had too, with my machine.
The material you're finding clogging the check valve is either coming from the pump internals or in the fuel supply. Your fuel filters should prevent anything in the fuel supply from the pump besides clean fuel.

So... the likely source is the pump internals. Your pump is failing. A part called the flex ring made of some type of fiber, is disintegrating and pieces of it are clogging the valve.

ScottAR · May 14, 2019

What hosspuller said happened to my 580d also. Reman pump and all was well.

Delmer · May 14, 2019

I thought the flex ring was made of coffee grounds? the rusty red sand sounds to me like fuel varnish. If it was mine and it's run five minutes already, I'd remove 46, replace with a rubber hose or plastic fitting so it doesn't leak so bad, put a drain pan under it, clean the inside of the fuel lines from the filter to the injection pump, and run it on some biodiesel for a couple hours or until it dies.

Thepumpguy knows the chances on this, and he would never risk the callback and bad reputation of doing something halfassed like this. Also, if your head and rotor locks up from running it, your core is no longer rebuildable. It's basically cheap parts and you're buying a new pump compared to the lower price of a rebuild.

MikeM22 · May 14, 2019

That stuff down in there is what I keep getting... cleaning this out, cleaning tank, blowing out lines and putting in some clear-diesel fuel cleaner and marvel mystery oil...

We'll see what happens!

MikeM22 · May 14, 2019

Ok, so I cleaned the tank, cleaned the top part of the ignition pump that had a bunch of gunk in it, blew out all the lines. It still does the same thing... runs for 30 seconds then dies... I don't understand how diesel engines work, but why would my machine run fine with the return line disconnected, but not when its connected? I'm not longer getting gunk at the #46 check valve, but its still not working?

showrguy · May 14, 2019

MikeM22 said:
Ok, so I cleaned the tank, cleaned the top part of the ignition pump that had a bunch of gunk in it, blew out all the lines. It still does the same thing... runs for 30 seconds then dies... I don't understand how diesel engines work, but why would my machine run fine with the return line disconnected, but not when its connected? I'm not longer getting gunk at the #46 check valve, but its still not working?

I’ll take a shot at this till the smarter guys show up..
The return line has a checkball and spring in it, if it gets clogged the pump will basically cavitate, and cannot pump fuel..
Thepumpguy pretty much explains that in post #7..

MikeM22 · May 14, 2019

MikeM22 said:
Ok, so I cleaned the tank, cleaned the top part of the ignition pump that had a bunch of gunk in it, blew out all the lines. It still does the same thing... runs for 30 seconds then dies... I don't understand how diesel engines work, but why would my machine run fine with the return line disconnected, but not when its connected? I'm not longer getting gunk at the #46 check valve, but its still not working?

showrguy said:
I’ll take a shot at this till the smarter guys show up..
The return line has a checkball and spring in it, if it gets clogged the pump will basically cavitate, and cannot pump fuel..
Thepumpguy pretty much explains that in post #7..

Ya, I understand that. I cleaned it all out and its no longer clogging up with gunk. I guess my problem is i'm really not sure how the flow of fuel goes thru the system. I'm thinking it goes Tank > Filters > Pump > Injectors > Return to pump > Overlow to tank ? This flow would make sense why it runs with the Return line disconnected, and why I'm confused as to why it doesn't when it is. But maybe I'm wrong from square one which is why I'm so confused? lol

MikeM22 · May 14, 2019

MikeM22 · May 14, 2019

Am I way off here?

thepumpguysc · May 14, 2019

Short & sweet version>> If u cant get fuel OUT.. u cant get fuel IN..
In that pic of the pump w/ the tc off, I can clearly see a WAD of broken flex ring..
OK.. LETS DO THIS.. {the pump has to come off anyway} Take the return connector off & put it in a vise..
& KNOCK the check ball & spring out of it.. MAKE SURE its clear..
Put it back in the pump & see if it'll start & run.. if it does.. u found the problem..
NOW comes the bad part.. All that crap is gonna go back to the fuel tank..
& eventually the rpms will start to fluctuate & rise.. it'll rise to the point that u cant shut it down.. & u have yourself a RUN AWAY ENGINE..

Delmer · May 14, 2019

disregard my post #23, that doesn't look like fuel varnish anymore, it sure looks like coffee grounds to me. And the inside of the pump shows no varnish like it would. Time to get instructions to send your pump to thepumpguy.

If your fitting IS CLEAN, then you might still have a fuel supply blockage somewhere, but you can deal with that later.

hosspuller · May 14, 2019

Looks to me, the red color is from the dyed fuel. Still sounds like "coffee grounds" …

Delmer: As was explained to me... besides your point of seizing the rotor, the engine may run away without the flex ring.

Mike: It's your machine and your call. Take a risk with the expensive engine/pump or go for the cheap & "halfassed ".

My luck has never been good, choosing cheap, especially when combined with "halfassed "

hosspuller · May 14, 2019

Mike … It took me a long time studying the pump to understand why blocking the fuel return starves the pump. The key understanding is the pumping pistons. The pump piston is in the rotor that turns. The rotor does several things. It's a distributer and pump cylinder block. As it turns, a cam forces the pump piston to compress fuel. At the same time, a passage from the top of the pump piston matches with a hole in the pump body that leads to an injector. (that's why the injection lines are located around the body) The injector sees pressurized fuel and sprays it into the engine. The rotor turns and blocks the injector line. The piston in the rotor is now sucking more fuel...BUT if the pump body is pressurized from the blocked fuel return/check valve.... it can't move or take another load of fuel to pressurize. Then the engine dies from lack of fuel.

thepumpguysc · May 15, 2019

Not trying to scare u but w/ that amount of flex ring material inside your pump{pic}..
Your not far from a run-away condition..
The flex ring is, lets call it a polymer ring that connects 2 metal pieces together..
Once that ring has deteriorated, the 2 metal parts start banging into each other & eventually, they shear off the metal rivets that the flex ring rides on.. & VROOOOM... off she goes..
The symptoms are> the rpms will rise & fall rapidly.. then it gets to the point that they don't fall & u cant shut it down..
The pump removal isn't difficult, but you might need to make a wrench to get to the bottom nut, next to the engine..
The EASIEST thing to do is TIME IT BEFORE u pull it.. it makes for a MUCH MUCH EASIER re-install..
& no way to put it back on 180* out of time..
Let me know when u get to that point & I'll walk u thru it..
BTW> did knocking the return connector out keep it running??

MikeM22 · May 15, 2019

Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand how diesels function. Thank you all for the descriptions and taking time to answer me and sorry for the constant questions and the annoying lack of knowledge lol

ScottAR · May 16, 2019

It's how one learns. Someone who wants to know can be taught.

thepumpguysc · May 16, 2019

Yeah, don't apologise..
U shoulda seen some of the Q&A's before I got here, to straighten these "yahoo's" out.. Lol
Hell.. I got some of'm rebuilding their own pumps.!! Before that, they treated an injection pump like a space alien.. "DONT TOUCH IT.. WE GOTTA CALL SOMEBODY.." Lol.!!!

NOW their try'm to put me outta a job..Lol
We walked u thru diagnosis.. NOW comes the fun part, taking it off..
Don't start turning wrenches just yet.. U have to time the pump & engine FIRST..
Let us/me know when your ready to start..
BUT.. BEFORE u start, u HAVE TO HAVE the $$$ to get the pump done.. U don't want a machine sitting for weeks at a time w/o a pump on it..
IF u REALLY NEED te machine or have to drive it somewhere to work on it..{garage}
Go ahead & knock that return connector clear.. & reinstall.. you'll be able to run the engine..
BUT BE FOREWARNED.. IF the rpms' start to rise or u have no control over them.. SHUT IT DOWN..
Stay intouch..

MikeM22 · May 19, 2019

Thank you, and thank you for all your help!
I ordered some parts and I'm waiting for them to show up before I go any further.

hosspuller · May 19, 2019

MikeM22 said:
Thank you, and thank you for all your help!
I ordered some parts and I'm waiting for them to show up before I go any further.

thepumpguysc · May 19, 2019

Lol.. probably a new return connector{15830} because "He got ALL of it out".. so it cant be the flex ring.. it MUST BE a defective return connector..Lol..
U KNOW u got it ALL OUT when the engine runs away..
He wouldn't be the first one to do THAT.. I get'm all the time w/ the explanation that, "that's a new return connector".." the old one kept clogging up".. All I can do is laugh & say, "I'll take care of it"..
Just havin a little fun at your expense Mike.. don't take it seriously..

HELP! 1986? Case 580D Construction King Backhoe.

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