Block warmer use

I have an 86 JD 410B. Any guidance on what temperatures I should expect to have to plug in the warmer? I find I am still having to plug it in before use even though its been in the 50s, sometimes 60s here in NH. Is that normal? I just did all my filter/fluid changes for the season with 10w 40 oil. At first I thought maybe I didn't prime the fuel lines correctly after the fuel filter change, but I plugged it in and got it going Friday and ran it all day. Then late afternoon yesterday it didn't want to start (I hadn't plugged in the warmer at all yesterday). I think it got up to the low 60s yesterday but I wasn't really measuring. What are you guys seeing with these old tractors?

BillS said:

I have an 86 JD 410B. Any guidance on what temperatures I should expect to have to plug in the warmer? I find I am still having to plug it in before use even though its been in the 50s, sometimes 60s here in NH. Is that normal? I just did all my filter/fluid changes for the season with 10w 40 oil. At first I thought maybe I didn't prime the fuel lines correctly after the fuel filter change, but I plugged it in and got it going Friday and ran it all day. Then late afternoon yesterday it didn't want to start (I hadn't plugged in the warmer at all yesterday). I think it got up to the low 60s yesterday but I wasn't really measuring. What are you guys seeing with these old tractors?

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My 310 and 410 are both a few years older than your’s, my machines get pluged in if it’s low 40’s or colder..
If it’s cranking slow and has’nt been pluged in I’ll sometimes spray a good shot of ether close to the air intake, so it just gets a little whiff... VROOM...

50s and 60s you really shouldn't need it. Id check the battery first to see if its still good, make sure you check your connections too. Some corrosion will really knock down the amperage available for cranking. You may also consider switching to a synthetic oil to help with cold weather cranking.

No starting aids? Glow plug, flame start, nothing like that? Personally, I'm not an advocate of ether. If used prudently, it has its place (below 40*) . As mentioned by redneckracin, check your batteries and cranking rpm. If she ain't spinning fast enough, she ain't generating heat to support combustion. A long life of excessive ether may have compromised compression and she might just be addicted

I haven't used ether in the year and a half I owned it, cant say anything about the previous owner(s). It started right up all last summer. Seems like looking at the battery and connections is a good place to start, or maybe it just isn't warming up from the cooler overnight temperatures.

BillS said:

...late afternoon yesterday it didn't want to start...

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That's not right, by the afternoon the engine was plenty warm at that temp. I have a similar about 89 JD and it will start down to 10 with one good battery, would probably start colder if I brought the battery inside, but I'll plug it in at 40 just to be easier on the engine, now that I have a block heater on it.

If this was from the 1960's and didn't like to start below 50, I'd just live with that. The battery, cables, starter are all good places to look. Do a voltage drop test while it's cranking to see where to look closer. How much use does this get? do you have stale fuel in it? or do you use a tank a month or more? It's either cranking slow, or low on compression, or not getting good fuel. How does it run when cold? Posting a video might get you better answers, we're kinda guessing with very little info otherwise.

I have a 310A that has less than 500 hours on an overhaul. I don't plug it in or use ether down to 30 degrees. Below that, a quick snort of ether if I'm in a hurry, or plug it in for an hour before starting and she fires off quick.

My only starting issues were related to a bad starter and then later on, a worn set of batteries. So, if you're having cranking woes, I'd start where the other guys said and check batteries, cables, and then starter. Does yours have the two 6 volt batteries, or a 12 volt battery? Mine has 2 6-volt batteries in series and it cranks way better than when we had a single 12v battery in it.

Doe's it have much crankcase blow-by ? Remove the oil fill cap with motor running and see if it doe's.

Have a Deere 310C … It was addicted to ether for starting 50 degrees or less. Got a block heater, that helped. BUT, New starter and new batteries, haven't used ether or heater in years. Mostly … the new starter turned it faster. Old starter bearings were worn allowing the rotor to drag on stator laminations.

The 4219/4276 engine has a little history with hard starting. First the use of ether has a bad habit of breaking all the top rings. I have seen these engines with all the top rings broken and still have good compression (and hard start). Leak down testing is the only way to find the problem without removing the head (sometimes). Does it smoke white when cranking without using any start aid? One indicator of compression issues. Another possibility is the engine has "B" pistons (base, which is standard build) and you would have to switch to "H" pistons (high) for improved starting. You can only use "H" pistons if the piston protrusion falls under a certain spec. Before I would dive into any engine issues you should have your injectors and injection pump tested first. Also rule out all the other basics....fuel pressure and supply, air cleaner..etc.

Delmer said:

The battery, cables, starter are all good places to look. Do a voltage drop test while it's cranking to see where to look closer. How much use does this get? do you have stale fuel in it? or do you use a tank a month or more? It's either cranking slow, or low on compression, or not getting good fuel. How does it run when cold?

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Took me a while to get home with some daylight and work this. I took the batteries out, charged them, and cleaned the connections and it fired right up. Probably not a good sign for the batteries right? I did not remove them and put them on tenders for the winter. They read 55% according to my charger, but had over 12V. After charged I let them sit over night disconnected and they held to 95%. What does the voltage drop test look like? Just hold a volt meter across positive and negative and monitor while cranking? It gets weekend warrior use, spent last year stumping and this year I am spreading fill. I am still on the diesel I put away in the winter with additive in it, slowly mixing in new diesel 5 gal at a time. I probably use 5 gal a weekend, two adds so far. After it starts, it runs great. I guess I will try to start Saturday and see how the batteries do then.

One concern, should I be reading a high voltage while its running and charging the batteries? I know on cars, you should read ~14V and that tells you the alternator is charging. I am reading about 12.7V while its running. If the alternator was busted I wouldn't be able to run it all day though off the battery I would think.

You're seeing 12.7 @ the battery while running? That's no good. Possible alternator failure. 14.4 to 14.7 desired.
Voltage drop. Positive lead on battery hot. Negative lead , start at battery, move to chassis ground, move to block, move to alternator case. At no point should your voltage change by more than one tenth of a volt.
For example, you have 12.6v @ battery with engine off. And when you move to the frame, you have 12.3v you lost .3v in connection to ground from battery. This is just an example. That's how you narrow your search criteria.
After you've checked and restored the ground side, change it up and chase power. Follow the path. Battery, starter, alternator/ ignition switch and so on. Same rule, no more than .1v loss.
Good hunting

Thanks, that voltage drop test makes sense.

If the alternator was dead, how long would I be able to run off battery? It has two 12V in parallel. I have never charged them until now. I put at least 10, probably 15hrs on the clock this year, since its been acting funny. Could never get that far on a car.

If you aren't using the lights, there is very little draw on the batteries once the engine is running with these older, non-electronic Deere's. My alternator died a few years back and I didn't have time to wait for it to get repaired. I could jump start off my truck in the morning and run all day with no issues. Note: I was not using my lights during this period.

Ok, sounds like I have the next thing to look at. Found the section in the manual for test. Thanks!

A note on voltage drop testing. It needs to be done with the wires loaded. Disable the injection pump so you can crank the engine without starting. Acceptable voltage drop on battery cables while cranking is 0.1 V drop per foot of cable. So a 5 ft cable would have up to 0.5 V of drop and be OK. Alternator wire testing you need the engine running with as many accessories on as possible (AC, lights, etc). The battery wire for the alt should not have more than 0.2 V drop and the ground side should be below 0.1 V.

It doesn't look like the stock alternator in there. Looks like it might be a 1 wire delco that ive been reading about. Anyway, it doesnt seem to be working. Any ideas how to get the right alternator for it? There are three options at the parts store 37amp, 51 amp, 65 amp (from memory)

Supply a serial number and I might be able to figure out what amperage yours is supposed to have. If you look at the John Deere parts catalog it shows them all subbing to a 65 A reman (SE501368).

I've had one wire delco alternators seem to drain the batteries. You said it started right up after you charged the batteries, the next step would be to charge them, leave the ground disconnected for a few days or weeks, then see if it starts right up. Then charge them (or fix the alternator) and see if they will hold a charge hooked up. Then you know if the batteries hold a charge on their own, and then if they hold a charge or are drained when installed.

One wire alternators usually need a higher rpm to turn on, then they'll charge and keep charging at normal rpm. Once your engine has warmed up, rev it to full rpm and see what voltage you get. Any small alternator will work if you're not running lights, heater and wipers.

Good point, I was measuring in slow speed and usually use it in slow or bump it up a touch when using the hoe. I never use it in fast. The only thing I use are some fans that are installed when its hot. I will retest when I get a chance.