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1996 JLG 45HA repair questions

DirtyHoe

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I repaired all the wires in the above picture. That fixed all the platform controls.

I'm trying to get the propane side fixed. The vacuum delay valve(1st pic) is in the picture circled in red. It is mounted on vacuum tubing between the propane vacuum safety switch and the intake manifold. It T's off to the ECS MAP sensor(3rd pic). This part is not in the JLG parts manual or in the Ford VSG-411 manual. I called two JLG parts dealers and they can't find it either. Have you seen one of these before on this machine or did someone add it on?

Steve
Propane vacuum.jpg 20190424_201854 - Copy.jpg 20190414_201345.jpg
 
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willie59

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I'm not a spark engine expert, I have no idea what that gizmo is, baffles me that anything is inline between the intake manifold and the MAP sensor. I'm sure there's a purpose for it, but I have no idea what its purpose would be.
 

OFF

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I was working on a Nissan forklift today that had one! That one says "DIST" on it, so it was originally designed for the vacuum advance unit on a distributor, probably in the 1970's, Ford, automotive. You can run without it. You only need it for heavy/extended full throttle use when the engine vacuum drops to zero and might cause the propane lock valve to shut the fuel off.
I might even have one, a new left over from a VS411 drop-in engine assembly we bought for a 40HA about 20 years ago. That would be a Ford Power Poducts part, JLG wouldn't have a listing for those.

Strange looking propane system, I'm used to Impco stuff. Where does that vacuum hose go? I see there's a "T" in it. Is that the same hose going into the spark module?
 

DirtyHoe

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Willie- It's called a vacuum delay valve. The link below explains how they work. They are color-coded to represent the amount of vacuum delay. Mine is white/black which says it has 63.5 seconds of delay. That seems crazy long to me, but then I don't clearly understand it's function in this application either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_delay_valve

OFF- If you have one consider it sold. I can only find it used online off of old vehicles. Yes, the vacuum hose from the "T" goes into the Universal Electronic Spark Control(UESC).
An experienced Ford Power Products parts guy said today he has not seen one and can't order it. He also said Ford was not responsible for the propane system. So he said to get it from JLG. But JLG said to get it from Ford. Very frustrating.

Steve

Propane vacuum.jpg
 
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OFF

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On yours, the part number stamped D32E-AA tells us what it was from.
D = 1970's
3 = model year, in this case 1973
2 = means it was used on the Pinto
E = the part of the vehicle, in this case - Engine

A 1600 cc version of that engine was used in the Pinto from 71 to 73, so it sounds about right.
 

willie59

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Thanks for the explanation OFF, I did not know that, learned something new today. :cool:
 
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OFF

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In our trade Willie, There is way too much information. no way one man can know it all. :D
 

DirtyHoe

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Does my propane system look like the original hardware? Is the screw with the spring the only adjustment on this system? How do you synchronize the gas/propane systems for idle? The machine runs great on either fuel at the ground control or basket(higher RPM's). I just can't balance the idle settings. If the gas side idles at 800RPM then I switch to propane the machine dies. If I set the propane idle(screw on governor actuator arm that mounts to the Zenith carb) then the gas side idle is too high. Also, the last picture below shows how the vacuum line is attached to the brass "T".

Steve


20190427_141010.jpg 20190427_141051.jpg 20190428_083323.jpg
 

willie59

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Yes, that Beam 60 is original equipment on that machine, and I wager that is the "original" regulator on your machine. And yes, on that particular model Beam 60 that adjustment screw did both start assist as well as idle assist. If you can't get it to work right I wager you need to replace that regulator, propane regulators get all funky inside over time and no adjustment will make them work right. You could try and rebuilt it, but in my experience over the years I've never had good success with that, hit or miss at best. I got tired of all the misses and started replacing, I don't have time to tinker with uncooperative components. If you do replace it, they've done away with idle adjustment/control on newer regulators for emission (EPA) reasons. The only adjustment on the new Beam T60 regulators is the start assist. They still call it an idle adjustment screw, but that's really not correct, it's a screw that helps open the propane delivery diaphragm when cranking the engine to start when air flow across the propane venturi is low. Once the engine gets running there's sufficient air flow across the venturi to work the delivery diaphragm both at idle as well as under work load. And I can't say for sure, but it looks like your regulator has the internal propane lockoff.
 

OFF

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I certainly do see an electric lock valve on that system too Willie. Must be to make the dual fuel work.
 

DirtyHoe

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Willie are you talking about something inside the regulator? Or the large round valve(electric #10 in the picture) just upstream of the regulator? The machine does take about 5 or more seconds to shut off while on propane. The unleaded gas side turns off almost immediately.

Steve

upload_2019-5-1_5-6-45.png
 

DirtyHoe

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While I'm waiting for parts I'm on to the next problem. So the 4 wheel drive system is not working correctly. All the low speed, high RPM(3,000), creep, and high/low pump speed functions seem to be working OK. When I put it in the high-speed mode(toggle switch) and then feather the PQ control it killed the engine several times and the machine did not move. The few times it didn't kill the engine the machine would slowly move and it sounded like a pressure relief was kicking in. Plus it sounded like a lot of gear noise once the machine started to move along. Low speed doesn't make any sounds. The engine was under a major load too. This is on flat dry grass. The service manual is useless.

Steve
 

willie59

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Willie are you talking about something inside the regulator? Or the large round valve(electric #10 in the picture) just upstream of the regulator? The machine does take about 5 or more seconds to shut off while on propane. The unleaded gas side turns off almost immediately.

Item #10 is the propane lock valve, it doesn't get power until vacuum is applied to the Microvac switch from engine cranking via hose #22. But the port where nipple #18 screws into the regulator looks like the port that applies vacuum to an internal lock off diaphragm so if you're replacing the regulator then you'd want to make sure the regulator you get has that internal lock off. I can't explain why they use two lock off devices, but I know it's common, Genie does the same thing. And it's normal for the engine to run until it dies when you shut it down while on propane, this purges the propane that's in the lines after the lock off solenoid shuts off. That way if you switch it to gasoline the mixture isn't getting mixed with propane. Moreover, if you're switch fuels, it's best to have the engine at idle and move the fuel selector switch to the middle position, this will shut off the fuel that was being supplied, whether gas or propane, and purge the carb of that fuel, then switch to the alternate fuel and fire it up.
 

DirtyHoe

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Thanks for the great explanation Willie.
What are your thoughts on my 4 wheel drive from my post above your response?
I drained the torque hubs and the oil was probably the original. It was pretty thick, a little low, and one was slightly milky colored. The magnetic plugs had the usual paste on it and one plug had a few metal chips(not good). But they all turned freely and sounded the same. So I'm confused, I thought I read somewhere on HEF that with the torque hubs disengaged(plate flipped around with nipple pushing the shaft in) the brakes would still be on. For towing purposes you had to release the brakes? Should all of my hubs free spin with the torque hubs disengaged and the engine off?

I was surprised to see two different styles of hubs. The front of the machine is one style and the rear is another style. The model numbers are W1BJ4E324 AND W1BFN0324. Is this original? One pair had 2 oil drain plugs 90 degrees apart. The other pair had 4 oil drain plugs. They were 90 degrees apart, but the extra set of plugs were behind the flange the rim bolts to. It also appears the oil is separated from front to back. After I drained the oil on the front side I discovered the rear plugs. This oil drained separately so there must be two cavities in this style of hub.
So I don't think there is anything wrong with the planetary gears. How do I figure out if my high-speed stalling is electrical or hydraulic?

Steve
 

willie59

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If everything i inside the torque hubs is proper then when you push the disconnect pin in with the nipple plate then the planetary is disconnected from the input drive shaft, no brakes, no connection to motor, wheels will spin, but not freely, you're still turning the planetary gears inside the hub. That's why they recommend a max towing speed although I can't recall what that speed is. As for the high drive problem, not sure what's causing that problem.
 

DirtyHoe

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What are the basics of the brakes? Can low speed or high speed overpower them? Are the brakes disengaged they same way for high and low speed? How do you isolate the brakes or verify they are off?
 

willie59

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I doubt you problem is with the brakes. The brakes are spring applied, it takes hydraulic pressure to release the brakes to overcome the springs. This pressure comes from the forward or reverse drive pressure sent to the lower frame, ports A or B at counterbalance valve. Internally inside the counterbalance valve ports A and B are connected to a brake outlet port, a shuttle valve prevents free flow between ports A and B, but the shuttle allows pressure from either ports A or B to be applied to that brake port and send that pressure to the brakes to release them. My point, if the drive is working fine in low range, releasing the brakes, then they would be releasing in high range as well, still the same oil coming into ports A and B. But I'm not sure what's causing your problem as I haven't seen this before.
 

DirtyHoe

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Thanks for clarifying that.
I've studied the wiring and hydraulic schematics, but they are handwritten and blurry. Plus they don't tell you what most of the symbols stand for. Some of them I found on the internet, but others seem to be their own hieroglyphics.
When I flip the toggle switch for high speed what does it turn on? An extra pump?
What does the 2-speed valve do?
What about the step control valve that has a high drive cartridge?
When the engine dies from being overloaded I think I hear a pressure relief valve being activated.
I also noticed on the Vickers valve stack(4 ganged valves mounted by the hydraulic tank) the pressure relief screws are all in about the same position except for one valve(closest to the hydraulic tank). It is backed way out on both sides which I'm guessing lowers the pressure for some function.
 

willie59

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First we have to get out terminology on the same page. A proper 45HA (at the platform) should have a proportional drive controller to control drive forward and reverse. Aside from that, it should have a toggle switch for pump output volume and another toggle switch for wheel motor speed. The drive controller controls the output of the Vickers valve section that controls drive motors forward and reverse, being proportional it gives you variable speed of the motors. If you flip the creep switch, that simply reduces the output of the drive controller signal to the Vickers control valve to provide a maximum slow speed. The Vickers valve gets pressure at the P port from the front pump section via the accessory valve. When you flip the pump volume switch it sends additional oil from the middle pump section to the P port of the Vickers valve, additional oil flow, which will slightly increase the speed of the drive motors as they now have more oil flowing through them. If you flip the wheel motor speed switch it powers up a solenoid valve that sends a signal to all four drive motors to change the position of the swash plate inside the motors changing the displacement as they're variable displacement motors, which again will change the speed of the drive motors. I wouldn't mess with anything on that Vickers valve, those things require special procedures to make adjustments to them.
 
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