Hard starting 328D John Deere skid steer

Paul Council said:

How many hours are on the machine? Might be that your valves are out of adjustment. Have you run an overhead valve adjustment or at least check the valve lash?

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It has just over 1100 hours on it, and as mg2361 posted there are no adjustment for valve lash. I wish it would be that easy though. Thanks

mg2361 said:

Great thought Paul, but their is no valve adjustment on that engine. It has hydraulic lifters. In that line of thought however, if anyone had the rocker arms off did not collapse the lifters properly on installation they will bend when the engine is started. Worth checking. Can be checked without removing them. Just twirl them to see if they wobble.

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We have owned the machine since new and the engine has never had any work done to it as far as internal goes. The starting issue is all we have messed with besides normal service work. I did remove the valve cover here a few months back when the issue worsened and changed the injector harness because I have had a few problems with them before, but that solved nothing either. I did check the push rods then but they looked fine. Thanks

mg2361 said:

Temperature sensor issue?

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I checked all the sensors and switches with the EMU and they all seem to be working fine.

Piston rings never seated

john hofer said:

Piston rings never seated

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Or installed wrong. I have seen it before. It is rare but it does happen. That motor could have been built on a Friday before a three day weekend.

Hey Paul, that's nuthin'.. I got a machine from the dealer w/ zero hrs on it & they couldn't get it started..
They thought it "mighta' been" a fuel system issue..
I loosened the lines AT the injectors & hit the starter.. that baby spun up to around 200-250 rpms & spit fuel a city block outta the lines..
I said, "wait a minute, that doesn't sound right".. it spun up way to fast.
I pulled a couple of injectors & hit the starter.. NO COMPRESSION..
They "forgot" to put rings on the pistons.!!! & it made it past QC & out of the factory doors & delivered to a JD dealer.!!!
Like you said, "Friday engine" Lol

Compression issue possibly due to hydraulic lifters pumping? Just a thought. Years ago I use to get JD heads in that were hard to start because the valves had sunk in the seats/
but those were high hour engines. I would replace the seats and valves depth mic each valve move them around to get them as close as possible then deck the head to bring
it back to spec.

Engine oil pressure ok?could it be the ecm waiting to fire until oil pressure builds enough hence why it starts hard while warm?disregard if you checked this.Good luck!

I've also seen a tiny break in head gasket right in between pistons
Anytime and engine is hard to start when warm there is a compression problem.

It doesn't use any oil, and once it starts it runs fine with no power issues what so ever. So without actually doing a compression test I can't say for sure but I would think if i had low compression I would have other problems as well. I have not had a chance to look at it yet but hopefully will real soon.

Howey75 said:

Engine oil pressure ok?could it be the ecm waiting to fire until oil pressure builds enough hence why it starts hard while warm?disregard if you checked this.Good luck!

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It has good oil pressure while cranking, and will set a code for oil pressure out of range high. I don't remember the code number but it basically says the engine has oil pressure and the engine is not running.
Thanks for all posts.

I have a theory developed only by the information that was provided here, so take for what it is. You have had two failures at the same time and one is progressive damage. If the new harness had been hooked to donor ECU likely the problem would have been solved. The ECU and the harness we're never replaced at the same time. The fact that you can change the harness on the pick up sensors and the code moves leans to an issue in the cam sensor circuit, fault code moved with the wire. An old fashion load test on the cam sensor wires would be in order. The ECU needs to see both signals to start properly. Most engines only getting one or the other signal will start only after extended crank time.

Somewhere along the way there could have been some poking around with a test light or power probe.

partsandservice said:

I have a theory developed only by the information that was provided here, so take for what it is. You have had two failures at the same time and one is progressive damage. If the new harness had been hooked to donor ECU likely the problem would have been solved. The ECU and the harness we're never replaced at the same time. The fact that you can change the harness on the pick up sensors and the code moves leans to an issue in the cam sensor circuit, fault code moved with the wire. An old fashion load test on the cam sensor wires would be in order. The ECU needs to see both signals to start properly. Most engines only getting one or the other signal will start only after extended crank time.

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You know I would say you are on to something because I kinda thought the same thing about it being part ECU and part wiring harness, but I removed the terminals one at a time from the ECU connector and the cam sensor connector ran a separate harness outside away from the factory harness. I twisted the wires together as well and put them in their own loom, and got the correct terminals for both ends so i wouldn't have to cut and splice anything. This did not make a difference and it was after I did this that the dealer tried a different ECU. We were thinking it might be the harness getting noise in it at first that's why we tried replacing the two wires. When that did not work they tried the different ECU and then ran the test for noise and so on. I am the only person besides the dealer who has worked on this machine for the electrical problem and I know that I haven't poked around on the wires. I hope the dealer hasn't been either, I would think that they would be smarter than that, but one never knows. I haven't seen any marks on the wiring either.

It's been a couple months so I'm not sure if you've figured this out yet or not but here's my thoughts.

jack01 said:

The only code that sets while cranking is ECU 636.10, camshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. {...} If I swapped the crank and cam connectors around then it will set ECU 637.10, crankshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. This is what led me to think it was a wiring issue and so I took it to the dealer to have some tests ran to see if it was getting noise in the circuit, but the test showed good.

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If I'm reading this correctly you swapped the connectors between the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor, so you plugged the crank sensor wire into the cam sensor and vice versa. The code changed from reading a camshaft error to a crankshaft error. This makes me think the wiring is good, if the wiring were the problem the code would have remained a cam code. I think either the cam sensor is bad or its not picking up on the tone ring. I would swap the cam and crank sensors (assuming they are the same, they are on most Deere common rail engines but I'm not familiar with your engine) leaving the wires hooked up where they should be. If the code then switches from 636.10 to 637.10 then you have a bad sensor, if not then it is a tone ring issue. I know you said the dealer put in new sensors but I have seen many sensors come from Deere DOA and cause me to further diagnose where there wasn't a problem.

We had a skid come in for hard start issues, crank and crank and eventually it would start. No codes and ran great once started. Turns out it was missing the O-ring on the fuel water separator from the factory and their maintenance guy never knew it was missing, so it wouldn't keep fuel pressure in the system and had to be primed every time it sat.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys about this machine, but it still has the same hard starting issue. I did finally get around to checking for parasitic hydraulic loads and the test was good. I also checked the exhaust temps with a thermal imager and it all seemed to heat up evenly between the cylinders and the temps for each cylinder seemed to climb and even out about the same with 1 & 5 being around 415 degrees, 2 & 4 were a little higher and 5 was a little higher. Didn't really see anything that stood out as a problem. As far as the thought of the fuel issue goes I have already put a seal kit in the filter base and checked for fuel bleed back. It will hold 4-5 psi for a couple weeks on a mechanical gauge and will build upwards of 30 psi after about 2 seconds of cranking. Also the timing sensors are the same and they have been changed out twice, once by me and once by the dealer. I have 4 spare sensors that all test the same. If I swap the harness ends it does change the code from 636.10 to 637.10 and I have swapped sensors and it still has the same code that's why I had thought it may be a timing issue with the tone wheels, and that's why I took it to the dealer to have it checked. They said the timing was perfectly fine. Weather or not they actually checked it I don't know, but I did pry around with a small screw driver on the tone wheels and they didn't seem to move either. I'm going to try to borrow the tools from them to check the timing myself if they let me. Any other ideas? I'm all ears.
Thanks.

To properly check the timing on that engine there is a tool that goes in place of the #1 injector to block the cam at a specific point and then the timing pin is supposed to fit into the flywheel. If the pin does not engage the flywheel then there could be a cam gear slippage issue. Switching the wires for the sensors and the code changes tells me it is in the sensor (not likely since you have multiple sensors) or something within the engine...tone wheel/timing, etc. If you know someone (maybe at an auto shop) with a two channel scope you can check to see if they are in time with it (easier than pulling an injector). The break in the tone wheels for the crank and cam should line up and look something like this...

mg2361 said:

#1 injector

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Sorry, meant #1 unit injection "pump".

jack01 said:

Hi guys, this is jack01. I have a 328D John Deere skid steer that is extremely hard to start. It will crank for at least 20-30 seconds at a time before it will start, and sometimes i have to hit it several times before it will go. I have taken it to the local dealer and they had no luck at figuring it out. They reprogrammed the ECU controller, tried the engine and main harnesses, tried new cam and crank sensors, reworked the fuel supply hoses and filter base, checked the engine timing and a few other things. They put in a DTAC case through Deere and they were even stumped. I am hoping that maybe someone could shed a light on this problem. I am open to any and all suggestions.
Thanks

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Just had the same problem with cam codes.I put a mahle starter which is a 2.6kw whereas the factory bocsh is a 2.2kw.Starts good now.Replaced cam sensor,load test wiring,check fuel pressure,scoped the cam sensor and crank sensor and the cam was very erratic.I have seen this on the 7.3l ford powerstroke with a weak starter.The inductive type pickup needs a certain amount of speed to have a consistant signal.You will have to relocate grounds from the lower starter bolt because starter is bigger and the nut will not fit.