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DEF Delight or not??

BSAA65LB

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
296
Location
Stone Creek, OH, USA
Occupation
Retired!
Demineralized water is ideal for cleaning DEF components. But lacking demineralized water, hot, clean tap water is the only other choice. Never use anything other than hot water to clean DEF components.

You should even clean your tools of any traces of dirt or petroleum products before using them on DEF components. You can contaminate the system with dirty tools.

IME, the engines that met the T4i requirements seem to be a bit more delicate with emissions issues. The T4F engines seem quite a bit less fussy.

A number of T4i engines had several software patches rolled out during production to fix assorted odd issues. It amazes me how many engine people either don’t know about or don’t try a software update. If your engine is a T4i and has odd issues not explained by hardware, ask about software updates for that specific engine.

With any engine with a catalyst, don’t rule out engine health causing catalyst issues. Leaky turbo seals, rings, valve guide seal leaks, even a dirty crankcase breather put oil in the system and overwhelm the catalyst.
 

Gene Allar

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
6
Location
Spencer, WI
WOW, lots of great advice. Thanks.
Just an update! The Case dealer service truck spent most of the day friday testing and driving my unit. At Case advice he ended up flashing the computer on the engine and the DEF pump and installed the latest version software. He took it down the road twice with no issues. He said the knox sensors were still high but he assumed the new program allowed for higher reading before kicking out a code. Time will tell. I pray it works but I will be settling down with a beer in my hand when the bill comes:( I will follow up with everyone on this trend after we use it for plowing if it ever snows again. This winter sucks here in WI. THANKS AGAIN!!
 

Wastepro

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
82
Location
Winston Salem, NC
Occupation
Recycling
Gene,

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? What was the bill like from the dealer?

We have a 2011 Case Puma tractor that just started throwing the 3612 code and SCR failure> Checking around to see what people have done. Our warranty was up last year, lucky us
 

just do it

Active Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
36
Location
nokesville va
feel sorry for the big horsepower tractors/trucks and equipment o/o thanks CA retired truck driver all I have is gas powered and they screwed that up!( gasohol) one new M-f diesel under 25hp exempt with epa rules you will be moving timber&dirt with elephants after that invest in tonka toys!
 

denalidigger

Active Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
34
Location
Wisconsin
We put some sort of bypass on our 2012 or 13 Kobelco SK210 right from the very start it had constant problems and we'd have to have the dealer come out and try to figure it out. After the warranty expired the boss phoned a guy and had this thing installed and 2 years later we still haven't put a drop of that horse **** in the tank. I'm still of the opinion that everybody that's anybody that runs diesel powered equipment needs to band together and let these 'greenies' that tier 4 or whatever you want to call it doesn't work and we're throwing our money away trying to make it work!

245dlc I'd love to know what you did or who to call! I have a 2012 Kobelco sk210 and I've spent over 4k since new on the DEF system. Every winter I get the DEf injection failure code and the dealer keeps cleaning it and putting new sensors in it. Any help??? Thanks!!!
 

Pony

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
364
Location
SE Queensland
Welcome to the club Denaliidigger.
I had the joy of spending $4k yesterday for my 2015 Iveco truck. Probably spent around $6k total in the last 12 months not counting my time and fuel back and forwards to the dealer.
I don't know about Kobleco but Iveco has electronic delete controllers for sale out of Europe .I'm just scared of plugging something into the truck that has the potential to totally screw the whole thing up.
 

Joseph Marasco

Active Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
28
Location
Northeast NJ
Occupation
Heavy truck mechanic
@Gene Allar can you track down a schematic and figure out what "Terminal 50" controls? That code 3350 is defined as "Terminal 50- Always on" according to a chart I found on CNH code chart I found. Link below. Maybe you have a rubbed wire or loose connection creating the issue.

https://www.altaimpl.com/siteart/pdf/T8000 Engine Faults.pdf

My experience is with on-road applications, mostly Mack and Cummins, so Equipment is slightly foreign to me. When I worked at a Mack dealer, most of the time wiring was the cause of after treatment issues. Certainly component failures and driver ineducation added to the list, but many times a shorted circuit, sensor, or open wire would be the culprit. I have seen wires broken inside an intact coating creating major headaches.
 

TDI guy

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
13
Location
Cottage Grove TN
Gene,

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? What was the bill like from the dealer?

We have a 2011 Case Puma tractor that just started throwing the 3612 code and SCR failure> Checking around to see what people have done. Our warranty was up last year, lucky us
The best thing to do is delete it. All the stuff people say about getting in trouble for doing it is ON ROAD applications. Other than California, I have never heard of anybody getting into any issues with OFF-road stuff.
 

Wastepro

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
82
Location
Winston Salem, NC
Occupation
Recycling
Does anyone have a good lead on where to get help with the delete. working on a 2011 Case puma tractor with the 6.7 engine. Tractor has complete SCR failure right now and wont stay running long enough to pull it out of the tractor shed and get any work done.
Thanks yall.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
3350
Terminal 50 is the cranking signal from the ignition system at the engine controller. This signal commands the engine controller to activate the starter. The fault indicates there is voltage at pin 32 (connector EDC7) or pin 63 (connector ECU) of the engine controller connector after the engine has started and is running. Check for voltage always being at this pin even after the engine is started. This fault code becomes active if the status signal is continuously active over 25 seconds.


Note: Depending on the age of the machine, there are different troubleshooting steps needed to resolve this fault. To make it easier to diagnose, the following troubleshooting contains the steps for all E/WB and F/WC-series wheel loaders.


The most likely causes of this issue is are:
  1. Faulty starter relay (K2 or K3 in ECB)
  2. Faulty ignition switch
  3. Faulty harness connection
  4. Faulty harness

Troubleshooting steps:
  1. Suggested first step is to test/replace the start relay.
  2. Verify the wiring between the engine controller and starter relay do not have any stray voltage or shorts to power or other wiring in the harness. Look for corrosion, bent pins, broken wires or other types of damage. Check for shorts to ground and power in harness.
    1. E-series (WB) machines:
      1. Pin 17 of EDC7 connector to pin 85 of ECB (position A9, fuse 9)
      2. Pin 32 of EDC7 connector to pin 89 of ECB (position D6, relay K3)
      3. Pin 37 of EDC7 connector to pin 86 of ECB (position AA10, fuse 10)
    2. F-series (WC) Tier 4 interim machines with ECD7:
      1. Pin 17 of EDC7 connector to pin 85 of ECD (position AA6, fuse 6)
      2. Pin 32 of EDC7 connector to pin 87A of ECC (position C10, relay K5)
        1. Pin 30 of ECC (position B9, relay K5) to pin 87 of ECB (position D6, relay K3)
      3. Pin 37 of EDC7 connector to pin 86 of ECD (position A5, fuse 5)
    3. F-series (WC) Tier 4 final machines with EDC17:
      1. Pin 19 of ECU connector to pin 31 of ECF
      2. Pin 63 of ECU connector to pin 87 of ECB (position C4, relay K2)
      3. Pin 88 of ECU connector to pin 36 of ECF
  3. The voltage should be no more than 25 volts at EDC7 pin 32 or ECU pin 63.
  4. Check the ignition switch for shorts or bad connections. Test/replace the ignition switch if necessary.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
Engine fault 3612 (which displays as Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 31E when viewed with the EASY tool) indicates that the catalyst efficiency is below the level two threshold limits.

Engine fault 3611 (which displays as Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 21E when viewed with the EASY tool) indicates that the catalyst efficiency is below the level one threshold limits. The 3611 fault code or 21E DTC fault occurs first, prior to the 3612 fault code, or 31E DTC.

Catalyst efficiency issues can develop, if the current load is lighter than a previous load and exhaust temperatures are not hot enough (232 C [450 F] minimum). As the catalyst cools down, the efficiency drops, as heat is a primary factor in NOx conversion. Therefore, a decrease in performance can indicate an efficiency fault.

Remove the dosing module (injector) and inspect it for large amounts of scale build up. You will observe some scale on the injector tip, which is normal.

Inspect the mixing turbulators in the exhaust tube below the dosing module. Verify this area is not built up with scale.

Check the DEF concentration with a refractometer. The perfect mix of urea and water is 32.5% urea to 67.5% water.

Place the unit on the dynamometer and apply sufficient load to achieve 232 C (450 F) degrees exhaust temperature. Watch the NOx sensor output in the "derate status" screen. You should observe NOx ppm drop from the static 500 ppm to 200 ppm, or lower. You can compare to the estimated NOx output from the engine, which is also found in the lower portion of the derate status screen.

NOx sensor in range failures can also cause these faults. Swapping with a known good sensor, or replacement, can verify whether the sensor is operating within range. You can also place the NOx sensor in the dosing module hole and verify the NOx sensor observation is within reason of the estimated NOx output of the engine from the derate status screen.

Remove the exhaust pipe and inspect the catalyst substrate for damage / cracking. The substrate should be a uniform honey comb structure. If cracking is present, replace the catalyst.

If the unit is equipped with 2010 or 2011 Model Year (MY) software you can update the software to MY2012 version. Later software may help with erroneous 3611/3612 fault codes due to some improvements with the detection. If you update the ECU software, the ICU software also needs to be updated to be compatible with the ECU. These updates change how the operators observe and detect failures within the after treatment system Once the change has been made, it cannot be reversed.

NOTE: If the software of the ECU and ICU software is changed from MY2011 version to the MY2012 version, the operators manual also requires replacement. The MY2012 software versions display different messages and functions differently than do the MY2011 software versions. Therefore, the correct operators manual must be provided to the operator. Search the Document Management Center (DMC) for the current operators manual part number for the machine model that is updated.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
It bothers me when a manufacture gets the blame for a possibly poorly trained tech. The tech should have went through the above. If your def injector wasn't checked a software change may not work. As we get older we realize following all the instructions lead to a more pleasurable outcome for everyone
 

Sberry

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
395
Location
Brethren, Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
Who should we blame for this mess? The tech? They can invent all this butcant put on board trouble shooting, got to have a team of nasa techs to probe dozens of pins and still cant fix it while the customer takes it up the ass? But it bothers you someone blames the mfg vs some worker bees?
Seems it might be able to be done wit another fee? OnStar type thing.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
If tech didnt pull def injector given the code hes an idiot. Maybe just lazy but no actually diagnostics was put into this fix by the rech. Nasa techs that's funny. These machines are simple 2 or 3 can buses is the equivalent of a nassa calculator with a dead battery in terms of diagnostics. Most manufacturers have the ability to view codes remotely if you pay for the service. Then the tech can view codes before they go out there. On board diagnostics there is. Its telling you the def injector has problems. It cant diagnose itself when it can have multiple causes. If it could you think they are complicated now? Sure manufacturer isn't training techs well enough. Reflash ecu maybe it will go away is a long shot.Who do we blame. I guess we blame our capitalism selves for wanting more more more more
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
There should be a thread about important information to get a copy of when you have a tech plug your machine into a diagnostic program.
Codes past and present.
Controller software versions
Diagnostic tests performed
Confirmation codes were cleared

This will allow the next tech to have a better idea of what's going on.
Past codes can be just as important as present codes sometimes more important.
 

terex herder

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
1,779
Location
Kansas
Who do we blame. I guess we blame our capitalism selves for wanting more more more more

We didn't want this stuff, it was forced down the manufacturer's throats by the EPA, courtesy of the Clean Air Act.

I was peripherally involved with the diesel engine design and engineering business some time ago. 30+ years ago the reliability engineers were God. As an engine engineer, if the reliability engineers didn't like and approve your design it wasn't getting built. Period. It just didn't matter how good of an idea it was. A 10,000 hour durability test requires 14 months, after everything is made.

Then along came the EPA emissions requirements, with never enough lead time. All of a sudden the reliability engineers were shoved to the corner, and the emissions engineers were God. 'Cause if the engine didn't meet emissions, there was nothing to sell. So lots of stuff got pushed out the door with little concern about reliability. Lots of sensors, wiring, software, actuators, etc. didn't behave the way or live as long as the supplier claimed.

So used equipment without all the electronics has seen an increase in value. Some emissions equipment trades at lower values because no one can keep it running. And truckers all want new glider kit trucks with B model Cats. There are always unintended consequences.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
I'm wondering about the evidence of used equipment values on older non electronic machines rising. It might have been three to five years ago but I sure can't quantify that today. Do you have some reference that I can review to research the topic. I deal with nearly all the equipment dealers in my area and all say the trend is that used equipment that is available is too old and worn out to make any money with. The feeling is that the only machines available in the less than 5,000 hours range will be rental fleet roll outs. The other issue is that the government agencies are mandating the minimal use of anything older than Tier 3. The feeling is that two to four years down the road any non compliant machines will only be allowed for hobby use.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
The cost of used non electric machines is going up. We have sold alot of older machines for pretty high prices for very used poor quality machines. Then you have to put another 20k into it to make it reliable. So that nice old emission free loader you paid 35k for as is now has another 25k into it 60k total and it's still far from a new machine
 
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