Filter cut "standards"..?

Nige · Feb 16, 2019

I usually have information on pretty much everything, but this one has me stumped.
For determining the condition of ferrous material magnetic plugs there are lots of photos grading plugs from 1 thru 4 or 1 thru 5, like the example attached.

My question is has anyone ever seen any type of similar reference photos for the material found in the bottom of the pleats of a filter element..?

Birken Vogt · Feb 16, 2019

I should not think that any discernible chips would be acceptable in filter pleats. A magnetic plug has the particles all concentrated in one small spot for your inspection. Filter media will have any tiny metallic chips distributed throughout and should not be distinguished from soot or other kinds of dirt the filter is expected to collect. My expectation would be if you can see chips among all the square feet of media the engine is making metal in a fast hurry.

Volvomad · Feb 16, 2019

A bit Irish but I stretch the filter paper over a dumper tire out in the rain over night and it shows up the metal from the general dirt then I make my own mind up . Never seen any chart or other peoples filters . We could start a reference here . A bit late for U

Cmark · Feb 16, 2019

There's a book called The Wear Particle Atlas that is very good. I've got a copy somewhere, I'll try to find it. Not sure if it has any filter-chop photos though, from memory it may just have pictures of various debris.
I guess you're looking to make up a simple reference chart for the service guys of when to flag a problem?

JPV · Feb 17, 2019

I have wondered the same thing, I have cut lots of filters and found small flecks and flakes scattered around and wondered at what point to start worrying, oil sample reports came back clean for the compartment so I didn't. I would love to know what is acceptable and what isn't.

funwithfuel · Feb 17, 2019

Someone, I believe it was Nige, posted a link to a video describing cats process for inspecting pleated filter media. I thought it very informative, now the drain plug analysis. Lots of cool.

Queenslander · Feb 17, 2019

Of course, the definitive answer to what's in your filter can be obtained with a filtergram analysis.
Cat dealers here offer the service which is as straightforward as a SOS test.
A quick search only shows a couple of Aus. Cat dealers, but I assume dealers around the world offer the service.
https://secure.hastdeer.com.au/hdsosweb/HDLabServices/pubs/Filtergram2.pdf

Nige · Feb 17, 2019

I understand that, but in my current location I can't wait 2 weeks for an analysis to come back from the SOS Lab. I need to help guys make judgement calls in the here and now while the machine is in the shop.
What I was asking was whether anything existed to help the technician in the maintenance shop in identifying the debris appearing in filter cut by quantity, material type, system the filter came from, etc, etc.

kshansen · Feb 17, 2019

I'm guessing the book Cmark may be referring to is this one:
https://store.noria.com/products/wear-particle-atlas

Never had chance to see it myself but could be worth a look.

Cmark · Feb 17, 2019

kshansen said:
I'm guessing the book Cmark may be referring to is this one:
https://store.noria.com/products/wear-particle-atlas

Never had chance to see it myself but could be worth a look.

Wow, expensive! I have to confess I didn't actually pay for "my" copy myself. I'll have to look harder for it.
Trouble is it's probably two house moves ago since I last saw it.

hvy 1ton · Feb 17, 2019

I looked at some research papers that cite Wear Particles Atlas. All of them were talking about ferrograms and electron microscopes. I don't know what's in the actual book, this is just what i could find with a .edu email address.

td25c · Feb 17, 2019

Is this an engine analysis ?

Any symptoms or reason to believe something is wonky ?

Delmer · Feb 17, 2019

TD25C, you and I do things by the seat of our pants, I get the feeling that Nige has "people" and these people need clearly defined instructions for judging, recording, and making operating decisions on what to do with the info from cutting open a filter, which could be every filter they remove in their fleet. Nobody likes a boss who says, "you should have done it this way, not that way that you did it"

It's not the same as the old Allis hydraulic filter that might have got changed a couple years ago, that has some debris on it now, maybe after another couple years and couple hundred hours I'll pull that filter again and have a look.

John C. · Feb 17, 2019

The US Navy had plastic comparator charts that were used for fuel oil. You sucked fuel through a white filter treated with chemicals and then put the filter in a box that had a calibrated light source. You put the chart in next to the filter and matched the gradient to the filter color and particle density. It narrowed the range of opinion of good enough or junk. We had something similar for lube oils but they put in the oil analysis program and that stuff was forgotten.

Nige · Feb 18, 2019

Delmer said:
TD25C, you and I do things by the seat of our pants, I get the feeling that Nige has "people" and these people need clearly defined instructions for judging, recording, and making operating decisions on what to do with the info from cutting open a filter, which could be every filter they remove in their fleet.

Delmer, you're right. Also remember that the locations I end up are not usually in the developed world.
We cut every lube oil filter (engine, transmission, hydraulic, etc) that we change. If oil went through it, we cut it. Usually every 12-hour shift could have 3-4 machines going through the PM Bay.
The cut filter samples are all photographed and uploaded to our Health tracking system database. We use Dingo Trakka but there are other systems out there. http://www.dingo.com/industries/mining
The guys who do this work for what we call "Asset Health", there will be at least one guy on each shift - it's a 24/7/365 operation.
They also do the kidney-looping/dialysis of systems.
They have comparative reference information (see the OP) regarding condition of magnetic plugs so that stop/go calls are not subjective based on a person's judgment.
It shows that they are thinking because it was them who came to me and asked was any information out there regarding what to look for in filter cuts. That in itself is a surprise because it's the first time I can ever recall it happening.

kshansen · Feb 18, 2019

Cmark said:
Wow, expensive! I have to confess I didn't actually pay for "my" copy myself. I'll have to look harder for it.
Trouble is it's probably two house moves ago since I last saw it.

Might sound expensive if you are talking about a one man repair outfit working for small mom and pop gravel beds or farm equipment.

But for an operation like Nige works for they probably spend that much on TP in a week! And if I had as many bosses looking over my shoulder as he might have I'd be tempted to buy a copy for myself just to cover my a$$ if there was a problem.

td25c · Feb 18, 2019

Yeah Delmer , problem is my people don't know when to shut it down after a symptom . " Oh it's good for a few more rounds " .

Had one of the guys open up the filter on the 290 Cummins . This would be a good example of rating # 5 on the chart that Nige posted .

Failure has occurred !

We got some slightly used aluminum if anyone needs any .

RBMcCloskey · Feb 19, 2019

Cmark said:
There's a book called The Wear Particle Atlas that is very good. I've got a copy somewhere, I'll try to find it. Not sure if it has any filter-chop photos though, from memory it may just have pictures of various debris.
I guess you're looking to make up a simple reference chart for the service guys of when to flag a problem?

www.particletest.com.au/spectro/wear_particle_atlas.html

clearprop · Feb 23, 2019

We use this on the airplanes. Different animal since it is an air cooled gasoline engine but I assume u are looking for this TYPE of data for diesel equipment. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB480F%20Oil%20ServicingMetallic%20Solids%20Identification%20After%20Oil%20Servicing%20and%20Associated%20Corrective%20Action.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjtjurd79LgAhWDY98KHVOjA7AQFjABegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0iyZkq7ivRhKl7T48ib3q2

Filter cut "standards"..?

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