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John Deere 219 engine: trouble starting after rebuild

pjflyer

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Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
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pjflyer

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Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
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pjflyer

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Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
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pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
I'm not sure if I labeled them right so here is a rundown by pic number:
1360 Number on cap #1
1361 my finger on the block by the number, my thumb tip by the number on the cap
1362 #2
1363 #3
1364 #4
1365 #5 (thrust bearing)
1368 #5 outside of block
1369 #5 outside of block
1370 #5 inside of block
1371 #1 main bearing
1372 #2 main bearing - cap is not seated all the way, but will seat all the way down
1373 #3 main bearing
1375 #4 main bearing
1376 #5 bearing slot without the bearing from outside the block
1377 #5 bearing slot without the bearing from inside the block
1378 #5 thrust bearing removed
1381 #5 thrust bearing removed

I know when we put it in the first time we tapped it from the front and back like the book said, but I don't remember checking the end throw. Book said .002 - .008 with no more than .015 play
 

Tenwheeler

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
870
Location
Georgia
In your picture 1356 the crank is trash. The thrust bearing has worn into the fillet.
Some engines do only have a thrust bearing in the block.
Every engine I have worked on had the bearing tabs, locks, on the same side ( lock to lock on each bearing ) except one. It was something foreign. They will all be the same in an individual engine.
I don,t know this machine but looks like the torque converter or some thing with the clutch was not lined up pushing the crank forward.
At lot of the posts and pictures are had for me to follow. If everyone will zoom in on 1356 I thank we will agree this engine needs a crank and line bore if it is repairable.
 

catman13

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2011
Messages
435
Location
oregon usa
Occupation
refrigeration engineer/excavation contractor
Why not find another motor and start over, this one is a mess and going to cost a fortune to make right if it ever does work
 

pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
It could come to that. We are checking into a few ideas and options we have. The good thing is we don't need this up and running right now. It would be nice to get it out of the shop though.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,362
Location
Oklahoma
Whos to say the thrust location on the crank and block wasn't f&*^ed to begin with. Maybe that's why the engine was torn down and left in pieces. There isn't enough metal in either place to support the thrust bearing for any length of time. Trying to use that as is would be futile.
 

jd1234

Active Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
32
Location
Michigan
1st) Agree with others, the fillets on #5 crank journal appear not properly ground, resulting in too little clearance at outer edges of the bearings. The #5 thrust faces are fed with the oil that bleeds out of this interface. Tight clearance = little flow.....disaster
Can you plastigage #5 journal with a piece across the whole journal?

2nd) Check the pilot bearing location. Is it installed correctly? The input shaft may be pushing the crankshaft forward with a load because of contact. The input shaft shoulder should not be pushing the pilot bearing after you bolt the trans / engine together.
I don't have a John Deere manual for this spec.
3rd) Was there a flex plate or gasket of some sort between engine and trans that was missed on rebuild?

Good luck!
 

pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
I think the pictures are misleading, but looking at the crank out of the block it doesn't look damaged and the fillet seems fine. Once it warms up a bit we will get back at it. It's been in the -10s at night and single digits during the day for about a week and the rest of this week is the same. Once it warms, we'll check some clearances and fit for some answers. It could be a lost cause for this one, but we'll check to see.

We don't have any plastiguage on hand, but I can pick some up and check for the vertical oil clearance.

Didn't think about the pilot bearing, that could've been the cause of the crank being pushed forward.

Thanks everyone, I'll keep this updated to let everyone know the final outcome.
 

jd1234

Active Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
32
Location
Michigan
PJ
One other thought: check the pilot bearing design, if it's the original pilot bearing from the 440B than it may have been a different clutch. They have different ID pilot bearings. Your 440A input shaft OD may be the larger design and the 440B pilot bearing ID the smaller design. When engine was installed the input shaft just pushed the pilot bearing deep into the crank bore , which wasn't far enough and results in a constant load forward.... Suggest you inspect the back end of crank and pilot ID and input shaft OD... if not just insure you had a "slip fit" rust free joint...

Good luck!

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pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
Will do. We can mike the spline shaft and the hollow portion of the crank to check clearance, as well as the pilot bearing. Still waiting on the replacement thrust bearing and for it to warm up. We're still in the single digits for highs, but it's supposed to warm up this weekend.
 

pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
Ok, we checked clearances and wear on everything and nothing is out of tolerance. I got a new thrust bearing and checked all that and have .003 on the end play where it said no less than .015 and between .002 and .008. I got the engine put back together and can turn the flywheel all the way over by hand. So we might get it in today and be able to try tomorrow.

Pilot bearing, what pilot bearing? I guess that's what happens when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. With two of us working on it, if failed to get noticed and there wasn't one in it. It's the B bearing with the .985 ID and 2.440 OD. Tried to mike the clearance looks pretty close with .005 to spare between the end of the spline and the pilot bearing. We'll recheck everything again. No one remembers or even the book doesn't say anything about having a shim between the engine and the transmission, so I don't think that is the issue. We'll see how this works.
 

pjflyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Wolverine, MI
Success!! We put everything together and it all check out fine with measurements and spinning by hand, so we stuck it in, bolted it up and it runs! Did the break in procedure and retorqued the head. Seems to be running great.

We're still not sure where things went wrong the first time. We had it spinning by hand at least until we got the pistons in and probably after the head to adjust the rocker arms, but we don't remember if we gapped the rocker arms before or after we got it in the machine.

The most likely case is either when putting it in it bumped up against the spline shaft and pushed the crank forward (which we don't recall it doing anything that hard), or the spline shaft wasn't completely lined up when we bolted it in, binding somewhere and when the bolts drew it in, it pressed against the crank.

In hindsight we never knew how easily or hard the engine should turn over with new parts in it. Had we known that, that it should have turned easier than it was, we could have saved a lot of time checking everything else out. Apparently there was enough binding and friction that it would smoke and almost start, but too much force working against it to kick over and run. It's also a good thing it didn't run. It probably would have start tearing up other parts that are more expensive than a bearing.

Happy ending so far!
Thanks everyone for your help. It's a good place to go when you start to bang your head on the wall trying to figure out what's wrong.
 
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