471 Detroit Diesel

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

My motor is 453T and I did inspect the heads and there is a crack in them. Not very happy about this... I will also post pics of my block fix. I still need to find a thinker O ring so it will crush when I get the head figured out.
Thanks
Steve

Former Wrench said:
I know it was said no machine shop, but I would do a magnaflux hit on it before making any decisions.

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

What is a magaflow fix? Above are pics of the crack and just to clear up the engine is 453 Turbo.. thanks
Guys

Birken Vogt · Jan 16, 2019

Wow, that is some crack. There have to be hundreds of these heads getting shipped to China every month for scrap. I wonder if there would be a way to intercept one.

Also, assuming the counterbore is OK and the liner o-rings seal. What prevents just filling the damaged area of the block with some kind of epoxy and reshaping it to accept the standard o-ring. All it has to do is hold back the water pressure. Maybe.

kshansen · Jan 16, 2019

Well knowing it is for sure a 4-53 and not a 4-71 like the heading says and the fact it has been run to the point of cracking the head like that at the bare minimum I would be pulling all liners to replace the liner seals. And I would not be putting any faith in thinking that is all that is wrong!

I feel the block has a good chance of being bad in the area of that one water port hole! Over 40 plus years working on engine many of them Detroits I never saw damage like that that could be fixed with a dab of epoxy!

Also agree bit time with RZucker on getting the full story up front being so important and not getting told the full story at the get go being so frustrating to those trying to help.

My opinion on what way to go with this machine would be to start looking for a "good used engine". There are a few people here who have the knowledge and skills to fix this engine but I'm afraid this project is not a good one for a beginner unless they have deep pockets and lots of time and a warm place to work.

kshansen · Jan 16, 2019

Ciggie said:
What is a magaflow fix?

That is Maganflux, not FLOW! To put it simple it is a way to find cracks by introducing a magnetic field to a component then sprinkling on some iron powder which will form a line where two sides of a crack come together.

With cracks like this head has in it it would be like trying to find a leak in the Titanic, too little too late! That ship already sank!

lg junior · Jan 16, 2019

When you took the head off, what did the o-ring look like that came out of the damaged hole in the block? Was it still stuck to the block or head and still round?

old-iron-habit · Jan 16, 2019

Try Northern Machine in Duluth, Minnesota. They typically have a few used and rebuilt Detroit engines in stock. They also have tons of Detroit parts both new and used in stock. My guess says both head and block should be available. Although 4-53 blocks are getting tougher to keep on hand.

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

lg junior said:
When you took the head off, what did the o-ring look like that came out of the damaged hole in the block? Was it still stuck to the block or head and still round?

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

Yes it was still stuck in there and looked like it was still sealed.

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

Ciggie · Jan 16, 2019

I live in Northern Ontario so getting parts from the US is very expensive... thanks for suggestions.

John C. · Jan 16, 2019

That chunk being gone is wringing alarm bells for me as well. Everything is whispering compression cut and sunken liner. I don't like the oil around the cylinder at the top of the photo nor the black marks between number two and three cylinders.

lg junior · Jan 16, 2019

The reason I asked I've seen that damage before. Your O-ring in my opinion won't work. Not enough sealing surface and it's round. The genuine detroit o-rings I've found to be the best. They are a little thicker than the aftermarket variety.
There isn't enough radiator pressure to push your o-ring out where the block is damaged. Your head gasket, the ringon top the liner doesn't look like it was bad. When they are, they will blow out the water o-rings. The o-ring will wad up in the water passage. The water then flows between the head and block and makes its way to the oil pan. Never reuse the compression gaskets. I think your block is ok as is, from past experience.
Also your head has been broke for some time. You can tell from the Pitting around the crack.
In your original post you said it stalled. My thought is you seized a piston for what ever reason. Not many things will stop or stall one of these when they are running. Detroits have a cast iron piston which runs tighter tolerances than aluminum like other engines. When they have a lot of blowby or get hot the skirt will swell enough to grab the liner. It will usually only leave a shiny spot on the liner.
Now that we know you have a 4-53 is it really a turboed engine. The only 4-53T I ever was around was in a 667 with a much bigger radiator. This might be part of your problem. Any history on the skidder? Did someone put in an automotive engine? The truck engine I had used a much differant thermostat housing. Pictures?
My thinking is an overhaul is needed. Might not sound easy but the engine needs to come out. You won't have much luck trying to overhaul it in the machine. The proper skidder engine also has a really deep cast iron oil pan which won't drop down far enough to give any good access. Good luck.

RZucker · Jan 16, 2019

John C. said:
That chunk being gone is wringing alarm bells for me as well. Everything is whispering compression cut and sunken liner. I don't like the oil around the cylinder at the top of the photo nor the black marks between number two and three cylinders.

Actually, the right side of the #3 liner bothers me more. Looks like tin transfer from the piston.

lg junior · Jan 16, 2019

From your picture of the block I wouldn't be afraid of it. Everything looks normal and pretty clean. Better than some I've seen.
The block damage is most likely from dropping the head in a past overhaul. Seen it done! normally you would leave the governor rack rod in and rotate the head off the rod, very awkward disaster waiting to happen.
Here's the nit picky stuff. appears to be an older engine by the canister fuel filter. and the perimeter seal goes in with the green towards the outside. Other than that I like the looks of it. Can't see the liners but I'd toss em.

Vetech63 · Jan 17, 2019

I feel like this is going to be another one of those disaster threads. Detroits, especially the 53 series, have more moving parts than any other engine. It not only takes knowledge to build these...…..it takes the proper tooling. If your engine got hot enough to crack the cylinder head it has flattened the liner seals. From what I've seen so far, it looks like an inframe overhaul candidate (providing the oil pan can be removed). Keep in mind, the work on the replacement of the needed parts isn't the tough part...…..its the timing, fuel rack settings, buffer screw setting, injector heights, valve bridge adjustments, etc...….that are critical to the proper operation of your engine. The type of governor will determine how you do your fuel rack settings, whether it a double or single weight, variable or limiting speed, open or closed linkage.
If your up to the challenge then I'm game as I'm sure there is more experience here than you will find in a service manual...…….but a service manual would be mandatory to me before you get started. Just know this can be tedious work, and getting the set up right can be very frustrating without having experience on Detroit engines. If you try to shortcut this, it WILL bite you in the ass.

So with all this being said...……….do you accept the challenge? I would expect to spend 2K on parts and tooling to do the job yourself...…..maybe more. If you elect to replace your engine make sure you get the proper build. These engine can look alike but they can be built in many different set-ups and rotation can be either left or right.

kshansen · Jan 17, 2019

Vetech63 said:
If you elect to replace your engine make sure you get the proper build. These engine can look alike but they can be built in many different set-ups and rotation can be either left or right.

Very true! Detroit's are almost like the Lego Kit of engines, they can be assembled in many different ways. Only problem is some parts will work in various formats but there are also many parts that are special for other configurations. Timing gears and cam shafts are just two I can think of of the top of my head.

I ran into a problem with a 6V-53 that someone else rebuilt for us. Got it ll installed in the Grove Crane and fired right up but had no oil pressure. Checked everything I could think of on outside then dropped the cast iron pan, not easy in frame! Turned out guy had installed oil pump in front cover for cooler on left where this one had cooler on right side of engine! Even more fun was pulling front cover in frame to install pump the right way! And this was a guy who had worked on Detroits for years but mostly 71's not the 53's!

Ciggie · Jan 17, 2019

lg junior said:
The reason I asked I've seen that damage before. Your O-ring in my opinion won't work. Not enough sealing surface and it's round. The genuine detroit o-rings I've found to be the best. They are a little thicker than the aftermarket variety.
There isn't enough radiator pressure to push your o-ring out where the block is damaged. Your head gasket, the ringon top the liner doesn't look like it was bad. When they are, they will blow out the water o-rings. The o-ring will wad up in the water passage. The water then flows between the head and block and makes its way to the oil pan. Never reuse the compression gaskets. I think your block is ok as is, from past experience.
Also your head has been broke for some time. You can tell from the Pitting around the crack.
In your original post you said it stalled. My thought is you seized a piston for what ever reason. Not many things will stop or stall one of these when they are running. Detroits have a cast iron piston which runs tighter tolerances than aluminum like other engines. When they have a lot of blowby or get hot the skirt will swell enough to grab the liner. It will usually only leave a shiny spot on the liner.
Now that we know you have a 4-53 is it really a turboed engine. The only 4-53T I ever was around was in a 667 with a much bigger radiator. This might be part of your problem. Any history on the skidder? Did someone put in an automotive engine? The truck engine I had used a much differant thermostat housing. Pictures?
My thinking is an overhaul is needed. Might not sound easy but the engine needs to come out. You won't have much luck trying to overhaul it in the machine. The proper skidder engine also has a really deep cast iron oil pan which won't drop down far enough to give any good access. Good luck.

Vetech63 · Jan 17, 2019

Ive been waiting for another STEVE AHLGREN thread. Lets DO this!!!!

Former Wrench · Jan 17, 2019

My advice would be to replace the engine and save the old one for spare parts. I think your block needs more than a band-aid.

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