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Experienced wheeled excavator insight wanted.

Jeckyl1920

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Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA
So, I'm doing some research. My background, backhoes, skip loaders and skidsteers, with some loaders and scrapers, water trucks and dumps.

I got wind of the JCB hydradig, and think it is very versatile and useful, but the limitations worry me a bit. From what I see of it, it's a fancy backhoe with no loader bucket and better maneuvering and positioning. This makes it faster for normal excavations, and you can hug a wall with its swing boom. However.....

I rate a 109 hp, 12.5 ton machine to be in the same ballpark as a cat 450. The beauty is you can move instantly and accurately. The bad is it doesn't have an extending stick. This means you move more often, and can't dig as deep(5 ft on the depth rating).

The other issue being, it's lift rated at about 1.5 ish ton at max reach off the tires. Since ducks specialize in being versatile, is this a problem?

Would dropping pipe in a hole be a problem with this lack of reach and lift capacity?

Is a standard duck with no swing boom more useful since the main function would be reaching materials around and across excavations, and excavating on building pads?

Is there a cool niche that this thing fits in that can be marketed in the 'mericas, and I'm just not seeing it?

I feel like this is basically a housing tract excavator, and doesn't much fill in the whole job it's trying to fill anywhere else, or am I wrong?

Any suggestions on machines that have good reach, lift, and stability while not being overly large and hard to tow?

My goal is to market an Engcon and Trimble equipped duck to this stubborn market, but I dont want to lose my butt trying to make it work.

Would a tiltrotator more or less make the boom swing seem overkill?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience. :D
 

Skeans1

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Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
82
Location
Rainier, OR
I could see using it on forestry roads for day lighting or mowing applications, some are used on landings for processors as well.
 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
That's pretty cool ! Interesting new ideas on old issues .

We use a perforated tiltoflopper bucket on the Insley K-12 rubber tire excavator .


Drive it to the job ….



Like member Scrub Puller used to say … " Machines change with time but the dirt don't " .

Something like that :)
 
Last edited:

Jeckyl1920

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA
I could see using it on forestry roads for day lighting or mowing applications, some are used on landings for processors as well.
I like the ideas. Thanks for the input.

In California, most daylighting is just considered tree trimming, and its typically a bucket truck followed by a wood chipper. The bucket trucks reach higher than the hydradig as well.

Tree landings require a big machine, I dont know how useful a backhoe sized machine would be other than picking limbs, and the trailering ability I dont think is viable for that either.

I was thinking a lot about the mowing and mulching application, maybe on freeway edges and such. Could be a reliable weed abatement business, and the hydradig could be a contender for sloped highway edges.
 

Skeans1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
82
Location
Rainier, OR
There’s two larger Komatsu wheel excavators with Waratah heads for sale in bc. A buddy does day lighting with a 15 ton 138 Komatsu with a small logmax head might be something to look into.
 

John C.

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Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
You see those units in two basic types of industries. The really big ones like Lieberr are used in the scrap metal industry and usually have the elevating cabs. I've also see the Cat 318C wheeled excavators used by the State of Washington in the forestry industry for maintaining forest roads. Those units are heavy spec. and do not have articulating booms but do have quick couplers and the bucket tilting function. They always have the front outriggers and plenty of guarding and are self propelled. I have seen them with munchers and clam buckets. The State loves them for replacing culverts, cleaning ditches and mulching brush that starts to impinge on the gravel roads where these units usually work. The last ones I saw were built in Germany though and getting parts was a slow process.
 

Graham1

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
300
Location
Hampshire, UK
So, I'm doing some research. My background, backhoes, skip loaders and skidsteers, with some loaders and scrapers, water trucks and dumps.

I got wind of the JCB hydradig, and think it is very versatile and useful, but the limitations worry me a bit. From what I see of it, it's a fancy backhoe with no loader bucket and better maneuvering and positioning. This makes it faster for normal excavations, and you can hug a wall with its swing boom. However.....

I rate a 109 hp, 12.5 ton machine to be in the same ballpark as a cat 450. The beauty is you can move instantly and accurately. The bad is it doesn't have an extending stick. This means you move more often, and can't dig as deep(5 ft on the depth rating).

The other issue being, it's lift rated at about 1.5 ish ton at max reach off the tires. Since ducks specialize in being versatile, is this a problem?

Would dropping pipe in a hole be a problem with this lack of reach and lift capacity?

Is a standard duck with no swing boom more useful since the main function would be reaching materials around and across excavations, and excavating on building pads?

Is there a cool niche that this thing fits in that can be marketed in the 'mericas, and I'm just not seeing it?

I feel like this is basically a housing tract excavator, and doesn't much fill in the whole job it's trying to fill anywhere else, or am I wrong?

Any suggestions on machines that have good reach, lift, and stability while not being overly large and hard to tow?

My goal is to market an Engcon and Trimble equipped duck to this stubborn market, but I dont want to lose my butt trying to make it work.

Would a tiltrotator more or less make the boom swing seem overkill?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience. :D

I’ve never operated a hydradig, but they look pretty good. It is a niche market being relatively small for a duck. I had a Volvo EW140 with Engcon tiltrotator and super swampers rather than twin tyres. Great machine, probably the best excavator I’ve operated, comfortable, smooth and pretty good off road on big low ground pressure tyres, but sold it as too big for what I wanted.
Having seen a hydradig equipped with an Engcon in action it looks a versatile bit of kit and the road speed is impressive. This is a big bonus if you are close enough to jobs to road it. If not a traditional duck would probably be a better bet as being bigger they have better lifting capacity and reach.
I have boom offset and a tiltrotator on both my small walking excavators and it makes them even more versatile.
If you buy one I would defiantly upgrade to low ground pressure single tyres, makes a world of difference off road. Most European ducks operate like this rather than the twins, unless strictly on tarmac.
Graham
 

Jeckyl1920

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA
I’ve never operated a hydradig, but they look pretty good. It is a niche market being relatively small for a duck. I had a Volvo EW140 with Engcon tiltrotator and super swampers rather than twin tyres. Great machine, probably the best excavator I’ve operated, comfortable, smooth and pretty good off road on big low ground pressure tyres, but sold it as too big for what I wanted.
Having seen a hydradig equipped with an Engcon in action it looks a versatile bit of kit and the road speed is impressive. This is a big bonus if you are close enough to jobs to road it. If not a traditional duck would probably be a better bet as being bigger they have better lifting capacity and reach.
I have boom offset and a tiltrotator on both my small walking excavators and it makes them even more versatile.
If you buy one I would defiantly upgrade to low ground pressure single tyres, makes a world of difference off road. Most European ducks operate like this rather than the twins, unless strictly on tarmac.
Graham
Nice. How stable was it digging on the tires with the singles on it?

That Volvo is actually only 2.5 ton bigger than the hydradig. What were you using it for and why was it to big?
 

Graham1

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
300
Location
Hampshire, UK
Nice. How stable was it digging on the tires with the singles on it?

That Volvo is actually only 2.5 ton bigger than the hydradig. What were you using it for and why was it to big?
Big singles are more squishy than twins so you need to be a smooth operator. I used to operate on sand dunes a lot, hence twins were hopeless. Ran a 1500kg empty screening bucket and hardly ever felt the need to put the blade down (I only had a blade, no stabilisers).
It was too big when I got a contract to reguarly work indoors and it was too high to fit through the doorway. A hydradig would have been a good option for this work, but they were new out at the time and I was looking second hand. Bought a used 6000kg Menzi as it was more flexible for my other work as well.
One thing I would seriously consider, if allowed, is having a trailer. Hydradigs are made for this and is a great option for carrying materials and attachments.
Video of a hydradig with Engcon
Duckgirl (operator in video) is an impressive operator. Check out her YouTube channel. If you buy a duck and can operate like her they will beat a path to your door to hire you.
Graham
 

Jeckyl1920

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA
Big singles are more squishy than twins so you need to be a smooth operator. I used to operate on sand dunes a lot, hence twins were hopeless. Ran a 1500kg empty screening bucket and hardly ever felt the need to put the blade down (I only had a blade, no stabilisers).
It was too big when I got a contract to reguarly work indoors and it was too high to fit through the doorway. A hydradig would have been a good option for this work, but they were new out at the time and I was looking second hand. Bought a used 6000kg Menzi as it was more flexible for my other work as well.
One thing I would seriously consider, if allowed, is having a trailer. Hydradigs are made for this and is a great option for carrying materials and attachments.
Video of a hydradig with Engcon
Duckgirl (operator in video) is an impressive operator. Check out her YouTube channel. If you buy a duck and can operate like her they will beat a path to your door to hire you.
Graham
For sure, I watch her on youtube a lot. She is one of the inspirations of my idea. I'm not as practiced as her, but I'm pretty good. However, I've never used a tilt rotator, and only backhoes.

The other inspiration, I watched a guy pulling asphault up for a center island. The guy was so efficient and fast while staying fluid that I couldn't stop watching him. After watching 2 "operators" dig holes in footings and bend buckets for 3 years prior, I could only think, "I want to be that good or better of an operator."

I was looking at trailers also, and was thinking, since they dont really make them over here, I could use a transfer trailer modified, and possibly up the weight on flat surfaces.

I dont know how big I would have to go machine wise to use that dinapolis 18t. Lol.

Anyways, I wonder what she thinks of the hydradig. I felt the reach was at least 5 ft shorter than her volvo.
 

Graham1

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Mar 31, 2012
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Location
Hampshire, UK
I don’t know the details, but from what I hear she much prefers her Volvo, but I would guess they are a lot more expensive.
I don’t think her trailer is a custom built one, but is a small farm trailer.
The basics of using a tilt rotator are easy to pick up and after that it is just lots of practice and picking up ideas from YouTube of how to get the best out of it.
Graham
 

Jeckyl1920

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Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA
I don’t know the details, but from what I hear she much prefers her Volvo, but I would guess they are a lot more expensive.
I don’t think her trailer is a custom built one, but is a small farm trailer.
The basics of using a tilt rotator are easy to pick up and after that it is just lots of practice and picking up ideas from YouTube of how to get the best out of it.
Graham

Thanks for all your input Graham. I've found a few more interesting details in this exploration.

Seems the volvo cab is comfy, and she's tried a liebherr and found the hydraulics to be better, but the cab not as nice. Dont have a liebherr anywhere near me, but volvo CE isn't too far. Cat is super close, and I dont think I want to entertain John Deer, even though they are probably the cheapest option. I may just have to go to demo days and see which I like the best.

So, in a nutshell, double tires are only good for hard pack or pavement. Rocks, tree branches, mud and dirt can get stuck in between as well, creating more issues. Singles are better in soft, and not great in mud, but better than doubles.

Single wheeled vs track, I dont see much need for track where I live. It's always dry, and sand may be the only obstacle. The only other need for tracks would be for tracking across demo and rip rap. With a tilt rotator, I dont forsee demo being an issue. Not to mention, renting a tracked excavator would be extremely easy.

Honestly, I'm surprised I dont see more wheeled excavators around. Most places we see excavators are infrastructure, and almost all of it is in the street, making tracks a real PITA.

I'm also thinking that the boom swing won't really be necessary, and lift capacity would be more valuable.

Lastly, I didn't think about checking for agriculture dump trailers. That may be the best place to find something similar.
 

Graham1

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Mar 31, 2012
Messages
300
Location
Hampshire, UK
I’ve operated plenty of Cats. Nice machines, but I personally preferred Volvo. In think the cab is a much more comfortable place to spend the day and found the hydraulics smoother. Never had a go in a Liebherr, but generally hear positive things about them.
As you say lifting capacity would outweigh offset boom for me as well.
What I forgot to mention is I had a two piece boom, which is the favoured configuration for European ducks. Gives extra reach when needed and enables working obstructions easier. Also makes it easier to work on close to the machine.
With regards demo days, Engcon are running a series of demo days around the UK. Don’t know if any of the tiltrotator manufacturers are doing the same near you. It would be good to try different setups before buying as it is a big investment to get wrong. Over speccing is extra cost, but under speccing might mean you can’t do all you may want to do.
Graham
 

Jeckyl1920

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Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
226
Location
Riverside, CA

Here's what I had to deal with for 3 years, but with a backhoe. I'm just glad we didn't use shoring that much. All new guys were warned when he started "grading" like this. Just stay out of the way bro! 10 ft past his reach minimum!

I managed to talk him out of the cab maybe 3 times.
 

Graham1

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
300
Location
Hampshire, UK
She is an impressive operator.
Very good control of the trailer as well. Having the forks stowed in the front of the trailer works well as they are a right pain for falling over otherwise.
Removing the steering wheel and controlling it with the levers is cool.
Graham
 
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