Case 580sl Do these pressure readings mean I need a new pump?

Tinkerer · Apr 24, 2018

I forgot you had the new valve in. I hate being old !!
The relief valve (#17) for the filter is the device that the U shaped wire retainer presses against. It will open when the hydraulic filter plugs, therefore preventing the pump from being starved for oil.
Is there any noise coming from the pump coupler ? Can you see any oil leakage at the pump input shaft ?
There is a remote chance that the suction hose is collapsing internally. A flow test would show it.

Doug580l · Apr 24, 2018

Tinkerer said:
I forgot you had the new valve in. I hate being old !!

The relief valve (#17) for the filter is the device that the U shaped wire retainer presses against. It will open when the hydraulic filter plugs, therefore preventing the pump from being starved for oil.
Is there any noise coming from the pump coupler ? Can you see any oil leakage at the pump input shaft ?
There is a remote chance that the suction hose is collapsing internally. A flow test would show it.

Lol, yes, being old sucks. I have notes laying around all over the place to help remind of things that I shouldn't need reminding of. And half of them I don't even remember writing.

Any chance you could give me a link for the picture of the relief valve that you're talking about? I can't seem to figure out where it is.

I can't see any leaks at the pump input shaft. I'm not sure about any noise coming from the coupler. I'll probably have to try and check that when I have another person around. I assume that you are talking about a noise when the pump is under a load?

Delmer · Apr 24, 2018

Doug580l said:
Just performed the test that you suggested.

Pump. Temp before. 78 After 107
Loader valve. before 72 after 87 inlet valve and 77 outlet valve
BH valve before 74 after 74

That confirms the loader valve is leaking worse, and the backhoe valve is fine- most likely. Could be the pump is shot? I would go to the trouble of rigging up a line back to the tank and a high pressure valve and tee with your gauge. It doesn't have to be as big diameter as the line you have, 1/2" is fine. If the outlet from the pump goes straight to the loader valve, you can disconnect it there, and all you need is the fittings to connect a tee, valve and gauge there. The outlet can go back to the loader valve.

Most likely Tone's test is fine, but if your pump, starter and battery are in excellent shape, they might not be for long...

Doug580l · Apr 24, 2018

Delmer said:
That confirms the loader valve is leaking worse, and the backhoe valve is fine- most likely. Could be the pump is shot? I would go to the trouble of rigging up a line back to the tank and a high pressure valve and tee with your gauge. It doesn't have to be as big diameter as the line you have, 1/2" is fine. If the outlet from the pump goes straight to the loader valve, you can disconnect it there, and all you need is the fittings to connect a tee, valve and gauge there. The outlet can go back to the loader valve.

Most likely Tone's test is fine, but if your pump, starter and battery are in excellent shape, they might not be for long...

I am trying to make sure I understand the test so that I don't do any damage. I am including a picture of the test port that is on a tee between the pump outlet and the loader valve inlet. If I remove the line on the right side of the tee(the line going to the loader valve) and plug it, can I just use the test port with a high pressure gauge? Or can I just leave it as it is and use the test port with the high pressure gauge? Please for give me for being a little slow.

Delmer · Apr 24, 2018

If you plug the line and use the test port there, that's Tone's method, disable the injection pump and crank the engine briefly/enough to see if you get 3000 PSI or not.

Another way is to put a high pressure ball valve after the gauge, but before the loader valve, and with the engine idling, close it slowly until you can see if you reach 3000 PSI or not.

Either method is potentially harmful or dangerous if you close it and the pressure spikes and blows a line etc.

won't be back till tomorrow. Good luck.

Cmark · Apr 24, 2018

Doug580l said:
Yes, it is a gear pump. So, if I remove the pipe coming from the outlet side of the pump at the inlet of the loader valve and cap it off, then I take the pressure reading at the test port?

Yes. You're dead heading the pump and seeing what pressure it's capable of producing without any way of relief. Go carefully. Just the briefest flick of the starter motor until you get a handle on what it's going to do.

Billrog · Apr 24, 2018

I'd be unplugging the shut off solenoid if dead heading the pump or find a safer way.

Doug580l · Apr 24, 2018

I understand both ways of testing now, thanks everyone. I do have 1 more question, might be a stupid one. If I do go the route of plugging the line and testing the pressure, will the pressure leak down on its own back through the pump or will the line hold the pressure until I somehow release it?

Cmark · Apr 24, 2018

Yes, the pressure will mostly leak off through the internal clearances in the pump.

alrman · Apr 25, 2018

@Doug580l hmmm, Sorry to hear the relief valve replacement didn't fix it for you. Everything you previously described had me convinced you had relief valve problems.
The senario you are now describing seems to indicate it does have pump symptoms.

What is the gauge read during pressure test (full rollback) & varying the RPM? Does it fluctuate as it did before?
Is any there any pressure present at full RPM while all levers are in neutral?
When you hold the rollback; the 4in1 (If you have it) or the lift on pressure - does any other circuit move?

Have you tested the steering relief? (2050psi - 2200psi) Does the steering feel OK?
This low pressure should make the steering feel heavy...
The reason I ask is that there is a priority valve in the inlet section which gives flow/pressure to the steering as priority & it may not be working correctly.

A flow meter is really your best & safest option at the moment.

Doug580l · Apr 25, 2018

alrman said:
@Doug580l hmmm, Sorry to hear the relief valve replacement didn't fix it for you. Everything you previously described had me convinced you had relief valve problems.
The senario you are now describing seems to indicate it does have pump symptoms.

What is the gauge read during pressure test (full rollback) & varying the RPM? Does it fluctuate as it did before?
Is any there any pressure present at full RPM while all levers are in neutral?
When you hold the rollback; the 4in1 (If you have it) or the lift on pressure - does any other circuit move?

Have you tested the steering relief? (2050psi - 2200psi) Does the steering feel OK?
This low pressure should make the steering feel heavy...
The reason I ask is that there is a priority valve in the inlet section which gives flow/pressure to the steering as priority & it may not be working correctly.

A flow meter is really your best & safest option at the moment.

Ya, I was hoping it was the relief valve too, but that's the way it goes.

The pressure still fluctuates when varying the rpm like it did before.
I don't think there is much, or any pressure present at full RPM when all levers are neutral.
I didn't notice any other circuits moving when I held the rollback.
Didn't check the steering relief. Not sure how. The steering feels fine, but I didn't check it with material in the bucket to weigh it down. It seems pretty light in the front end when the bucket is empty.

Sounding like I need to get the a flow test. Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Hedland-H601...379&sr=8-3&keywords=hydraulic+flow+meter&th=1 Or am I better off having a mechanic from the dealer come out and test it? I like spending money on tools.

Tinkerer · Apr 25, 2018

Do you have the service manual for your 680 ?
You really need one to fully understand the procedures and equipment needed to do the flow test. Please don't take that statement as a put down. It takes a lot of training for a technician to thoroughly learn to do the flow test procedures.That meter on Amazon isn't what you need.
The pressures that your pump can develop when doing the dead head test can be quite dangerous if a line bursts. Oil injected into your skin can be life threatening. Or you could be blinded without proper eye protection. The lines in a machine that old will have weak spots where you would never expect them. I am posting a photo of your loader control valve just for reference. It shows the main relief valve and the power beyond valve.

Doug580l · Apr 25, 2018

Tinkerer said:
Do you have the service manual for your 680 ?
You really need one to fully understand the procedures and equipment needed to do the flow test. Please don't take that statement as a put down. It takes a lot of training for a technician to thoroughly learn to do the flow test procedures.That meter on Amazon isn't what you need.
The pressures that your pump can develop when doing the dead head test can be quite dangerous if a line bursts. Oil injected into your skin can be life threatening. Or you could be blinded without proper eye protection. The lines in a machine that old will have weak spots where you would never expect them. I am posting a photo of your loader control valve just for reference. It shows the main relief valve and the power beyond valve.
View attachment 180447

Tinkerer, I appreciate your post. I do have a tendency to jump into things without fully understanding them. If I can't get this figured out I'll have a mechanic come out and do it. I've got several other issues with the machine too so I'll probably try to fix them and if I can't I can have the mechanic check them too as long as he's here.

I do have a service manual for my 580. Just got a paper one yesterday. I had one on cd but it's pretty much unusable for me. The search feature doesn't work well and my arthritic hands can't take 20 minutes of scrolling through it trying to find what I'm looking for.

Tinkerer · Apr 25, 2018

Doug580l said:
I do have a service manual for my 580. Just got a paper one yesterday. I had one on cd but it's pretty much unusable for me. The search feature doesn't work well and my arthritic hands can't take 20 minutes of scrolling through it trying to find what I'm looking for.

Was the 580 a mistype ? I have read that some manuals on CDs are not very good. I understand the arthritis problem you have. I have it in my back. I thank God my hands are free of arthritis.
Keep posting back about your progress. Don't get discouraged. Keep asking questions.
HEF has the best help possable that can be found anywhere, for anything related to the construction industry.

Delmer · Apr 25, 2018

Doing a pressure test on just the pump will probably give you enough info to decide whether to replace the pump or not. Deadheading it like Tones and Cmark said, or using a valve like I mentioned. Tones and Cmark have way more experience than I do, so I'd trust their judgement. If your pump is not capable of more than 2,000 PSI deadheaded, then you don't really need to know the volumetric efficiency.

Alrman is THE expert on these Cases, and he brought up some critical info about the priority valve that I was not aware of.

Does your manual have any info on valve leakage rates? On a closed center system, testing the valves is easy, you just take the return off and measure the ounces of oil dripping per minute. If there's not a procedure in your manual, you could figure out how the steering priority valve is supposed to work, and either cap the lines to it, or measure the return oil with a hose into a bucket, then crank the engine with the injection pump off and the bucket curl held back, and see what pressure you achieve and return you get out of the loader valve.

Sorry to make this seem so complicated. There's just different ways of looking at this problem. And different ways of finding out what's going on- where's the pressure and flow?

Doug580l · Apr 25, 2018

Tinkerer said:
Was the 580 a mistype ? I have read that some manuals on CDs are not very good. I understand the arthritis problem you have. I have it in my back. I thank God my hands are free of arthritis.
Keep posting back about your progress. Don't get discouraged. Keep asking questions.
HEF has the best help possable that can be found anywhere, for anything related to the construction industry.

Tinkerer, thanks for this post. I was feeling kind of bad asking so many questions and not picking up on things as quickly as I would like to. I've learned a lot form reading through the forum so far. The machine is a 1997 580 Super L.

Doug580l · Apr 25, 2018

Delmer said:
Doing a pressure test on just the pump will probably give you enough info to decide whether to replace the pump or not. Deadheading it like Tones and Cmark said, or using a valve like I mentioned. Tones and Cmark have way more experience than I do, so I'd trust their judgement. If your pump is not capable of more than 2,000 PSI deadheaded, then you don't really need to know the volumetric efficiency.

Alrman is THE expert on these Cases, and he brought up some critical info about the priority valve that I was not aware of.

Does your manual have any info on valve leakage rates? On a closed center system, testing the valves is easy, you just take the return off and measure the ounces of oil dripping per minute. If there's not a procedure in your manual, you could figure out how the steering priority valve is supposed to work, and either cap the lines to it, or measure the return oil with a hose into a bucket, then crank the engine with the injection pump off and the bucket curl held back, and see what pressure you achieve and return you get out of the loader valve.

Sorry to make this seem so complicated. There's just different ways of looking at this problem. And different ways of finding out what's going on- where's the pressure and flow?

I just got a usable service manual so I'll start looking and hopefully be able to figure out how to do some of these tests. Most likely I won't be able to, lol.

Doug580l · Apr 25, 2018

Tones said:
Me thinks you have problem with O rings on spools.I had a very similar problem with heaps of pressure variation with readings from 600- 1800 PSI yet the pump was pushing 3200 PSI. To fix I replaced every 0 ring and backup ring on the control bank. It's worked perfect since

So, you took the entire loader control valve assembly apart and put new o rings in everything? I was looking at it in the service manual. It looks like a lot of meticulous work(not a strength of mine). Is there an o ring kit for all of it or do I have to buy them separately for each section or component?

Tinkerer · Apr 25, 2018

Doug580l said:
Tinkerer, thanks for this post. I was feeling kind of bad asking so many questions and not picking up on things as quickly as I would like to. I've learned a lot form reading through the forum so far. The machine is a 1997 580 Super L.

Hang in there Doug, you will get the help you need.
Disregard my earlier posts with photos. I had my head in my ### ! I was thinking of a different machine entirely when I looked up those photos in the parts book.
I wouldn't worry about resealing the control valve just yet. Although that may be the problem. Do the dead head test on the pump first , like Cmark and the others suggested.
Hopefully Alrman, Coy or Melben will be back and help you some more. They are the true experts in all the Case T/L/Bs.

Delmer · Apr 25, 2018

If you can find anything in your manual on the steering priority valve, that sounds like the next place I'd look.

Case 580sl Do these pressure readings mean I need a new pump?

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