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Any advice on my 188 engine swap in the old ck would be appreciated

Funny farm

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Red seal,high pressure certified welder
Hi. New to the site and fairly new to heavyequipment. Bought a backhoe a couple years ago and a few months later it started toknock badly. Stopped running her immediately and after several years of looking I found a replacement engine.Wondering what i should replace on the “new to me “ engine before installing it. Rear main seal? Other gaskets ?...?? Or just install it as is ?? Also should I replace and seals like the converter seal? ( I have a power shuttle unit ) Any help and tips would be greatlyappreciated as I’m a bit unsure as to what I should pay attention to and what I can leave be. Old engine runs and has good spare parts but has a crank/ rod knock. With the cost of a crank and rebuild I decided to start with a diff engine and hope for the best. New engine is claimed to have about 3000hrs and was pulled from a running hoe. It has a clutch and flywheel that I will need to swap for the one off the original engine as it has a converter not a clutch. Any tips on swapping the flywheels around ?... I notice a few small diff in the engine castings but they r both 188engines. Thank in advance for any help. Heading out now to continue preparing for the split. Old engine is almost disconnected now. Just the steering rams, fuel lines and throttle rod , hyd pump and radiator to remove and a few other small things. Then it’s time to block the old girl up and split her in half. Never done this before and I’m working in a gravel driveway so fingers crossed it goes ok. Gotta use what u have and unfortunately I don’t have a shop or a cement pad , so level spot on gravel lane will have to do.
Update. I had a good day today. Got the engine for all ready to come out. Tractor is on jacks and the bolts are all lose. Can rock the front tires and see the gap open up at the bell housing so it’s just sitting there now. Running outta daylight so time to clean up. Added some pics of it as of today’s progress. New to me engine is inside my lil workshop for prep work. Some cleaning and maybe some fresh gaskets and such. Might do the rear seal before it’s installed. ?? Gotta remove the flywheel and use my original 3B6CABB5-D9EA-4541-9117-FB5EE414165A.jpeg0018A9B1-4006-48BA-9980-D7B7EFEB1561.jpegF08CFFC9-CC76-4A1E-AF3A-8D7C7F57B5AE.jpeg9EBFADF7-21CB-4C2D-A199-6A0EE5150D3C.jpeg
 

Tinkerer

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Looks good FF !
Yes, by all means change the rear crankshaft seal. Maybe the front one to. They will never be easier to get access to than now.
Take a good look at the ring-gear to. If some of the teeth have a lot of wear you should change it. Depending on how the crankshaft stops rotating on shut down the starter will engage the same teeth quite often.
 

Funny farm

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Red seal,high pressure certified welder
Looks good FF !
Yes, by all means change the rear crankshaft seal. Maybe the front one to. They will never be easier to get access to than now.
Take a good look at the ring-gear to. If some of the teeth have a lot of wear you should change it. Depending on how the crankshaft stops rotating on shut down the starter will engage the same teeth quite often.
Never thought about the ring gear... I will check that tomorrow after I split the tractor. Are all crank seals for the 188 the same ? I’m unsure of the year of either engine.
I notice that the one injector one the replacement engine looks to have a slight bend in it .. it’s not a lot but it’s slightly “tweaked” outa line with the others. On The orig engine all the injectors are straight and line up in a row much better. Will a slight bend damage the injector ? Should I attempt to swap injectors ? The orig engine ran well, started well just developed a knock. Fairly sure the original injectors are good but am nervous to attempt to remove them. Hope to have it split tomorrow. I’m going to look into replacing the seals front and rear and I think there’s a seal in the power shuttle converter or something I should replace when it’s apart. Hope fully I can find the proper seals for this old machine fairly quick. Thanks for the ring gear tip. Hadn’t thought of that.
 

Wes J

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Peoria, IL
If you swap injectors, replace the copper sealing washers on the ends. I'd have them pop tested while they are out if you have an injection shop around.

The rear seal on that is probably a rope seal. If you've never changed one, you kind of have to do it right, and they still leak. You have to trim the rope seal once it is installed in the carrier, and it can be a real pain depending on the material used (usually some kind of graphite impregnated jute).

Those are good engines. My dad had a Case 580B with a 188. That was the best starting old diesel I've ever seen. They made a gas version of that engine that was also very good.
 

Funny farm

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63D1C6E0-EB04-480E-98A5-C2064C577049.jpeg467D5576-C1CF-403E-A509-128406B28F40.jpeg
Thanks for the replies and good tips. Any help I can get with this project is appreciated. Hope to get the original eng out today and get the new to me engine cleaned up and give it a quick inspection. Remove the clutch and swap over the flywheel and converter from the original. Another beautiful sunny day again today, how better to enjoy it than by being out in to , elbows deep in an old case backhoe . Hope fully the bent injector works and I don’t need to pull them. But I guess I can do that kinda swap once the engine is installed. Front loader pivots all need rebuilding as there wollered out bad but I will deal with them once I have a running engine. We pulled the loader to make engine repair easier and cause once it runs the pivots need work. I’m a welder for a living and have a small south bend 9 lathe I bought just for making bushings and parts for the old ck. Or ckb ? Still not exactly sure what one I have. I know it’s old and wore out. Lol was listed as a 580ckb but the serial is long gone and I haven’t been able to determine the year or model for sure. I believe it’s 67-69 and either a ck or a ckb lol. Thanks again for true tips. Will look closer at the rear seal. I ha e changed “packing” on steam seals before that used graphite rope so I wouldn’t be too scared off by that. I do have a manual on CD but currently have no computer to look at it with. Read lots of good info on this site, so I joined and posted this in hopes someone else on here has been here before and could lend some advise and share some knowledge. I’m pretty mavanical and can fix about anything but never done a backhoe like his before and any help for this who have might just save me a big mistake or save me from pulling it again to change something I could have done now when it’s apart. I’ll post some pics once it’s split later today. Pics in this post r of the new to me eng and my father in law helping me prep to split the eng.
 

Funny farm

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Well had good progress today Tractor split went good. Engine is out and flywheel is removed. Does the alignment matter when re installing the engine to the transmission as far as the “basket teeth” and the transmission gear they mesh to (pic1&3) When removing the clutch and flywheel the new to me engine I found it has one broken off bolt in the crank stub that I will have to remove before installing the original one for the transmission. Now to clean up the engine that’s being installed and change a few seals and gaskets before installing it. Scraped 20 years of grime off the engine area lol Going to de grease and clean up as much as I can as I locate and order seals and gaskets, need the bell housing gasket, rear main seal, front main seal, oil pan gasket, valve cover and I’m sure a few others lol She came apart surprisingly well for an old machine and we only needed to heat the four big bolts at the end of the loader frames where they bolt to the nose piece, the pivot pin is kinda sloppy on the oil pan so I may look at repairing that a bit. Now to track down some gaskets and seals and keep cleaning the layers of crud and grime off in the meantime.. hopefully have the engine ready for install in a week or two, then to repair the loader pivots, the steering spindle bearings and steering ram on the one side, some leaky rams, a leaky backhoe valve... one issue at a time and none matter until she runs again lol A2E8AEAC-53AD-4FC5-9957-9A1AFF3117DC.jpeg 9A8E055C-6622-4297-B41A-8984B3FDE225.jpeg AA26CFA0-46CC-4C35-B2AD-646EC0AEB6E0.jpeg DD697D11-E6F6-412E-9B3C-B3D4EB6E5BD9.jpeg
 

Funny farm

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Lol. Thanks tinkerer. I am super happy with the progress this weekend. Actually I have never worked on a backhoe before this one. Done lots of automotive type work but never split a tractor or seen inside a transmission like this... still unsure about what all to replace and fix on the engine before installing it. Hope to find main seals and maybe do valve cover and oil pan gaskets as well. Need to find the bell housing and starter gaskets too.. hopefully the local case dealer can help and don’t want more than the old hoe is worth for them lol. Might have to shop online for the seals and gaskets. Few more pics too Will need to clean the rear main seal housing up good The orig engine rms housing is like new still cause it’s oil bathed where the replacement engine had a clutch and there’s a bit of crud around he rear of the engine. Maybe easier to swap housings and just replace the seal. Haven’t taken front pulley off yet to see how the front main is replaced, bud I did notice a fair amount of crud in that area leading me to think it may have been leaking slightly.. worst case I guess I will buy a full gasket kit with main seals, just hate to spend that much and don’t need them all at this point. Wish I could do a major rebuild kit and install the engine all re built.. but I just can’t afford the extra expense right now so I’m going to take my chances that the guy who sold me the new engine was truthful and it’s a good running engine.... or at least has a good crank and rods I could use to rebuild my orig engine as it runs great just knocks once warm Roll the dice and see I guess lol thanks for the replies I’ll try to add pics and update as there is things to update 0DBF9C6E-4BC0-4DFC-9A5C-01DB1FB51EB8.jpeg3248DE02-F934-424A-8146-E065BE41A124.jpegD7839087-DA4A-4B68-9179-158E310A2C08.jpeg
 

Wes J

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You should be able to buy a "bottom end" gasket set with a front main, rear main, pan gasket, drain plug washer, etc. They are cheap. Probably less than $50.

The front main should be a regular lip seal. Where you can run into trouble on those is if the damper or pulley has a bad groove worn in it. If it's badly worn, you can have it welded and machine down at a machine shop, or they can install a sleeve. Or you can replace it.

If you pull the pan, make sure you flatten the flange with a hammer. The bolt holes are always puckered out.
 

Funny farm

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Thanks Wes j. I will inspect the seal areas l once i have them out. I am a welder so I could build it up with the tig,and I have a small lathe ...so Long as the Pully is under 9”dia I could machine it myself as well( if it’s bigger I can have it machined ) . See what I can find locally for parts. The rear main has a cr number and looks to be a normal oil seal. Can I just match up an new seal and install it into the old housing? ... Cleaned up well of course lol. I’m more worried about finding a bell housing gasket actually. I see lots of kits online include the main seals but can find very little about the bell housing gasket ?... I doubt a bead of gasket maker would last like a new paper one will. And being full of oil I don’t want it to leak. I’ll see what the local dealer says in the morning and go from there. Thanks again for more good info.
 

Wes J

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That engine was used in all kinds of equipment, dozers, skid steers, tractors, etc. So, the bell housing will be specific to your machine. The dealer should be able to get one, or you can make one from gasket material.
 

thepumpguysc

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FF would you do a fellow member a favor & look at your flywheel..
Is it possible to put it on wrong?? backwards, 180* out?? is it dowel pinned??
I'm asking because another member has been fighting one for years.. cant find any marks on his flywheel for TDC..& isn't mechanically inclined to watch the valves..
I figured since you had your out..?? Thanks, TPG
 

Funny farm

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I will look tonight pump guy. It was not pinned tho I do can say for sure. I saw no marks on it yesterday but wasn’t looking real close either. Just four bolts and as I saw and nothing to allingn. The flywheel/clutch I removed has timing marks and such. It I’m he shuttle flywheel didn’t have any that I saw. But I will look closer and take some pics tonight and post my findings.
 

Funny farm

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I didn’t notice them being offset. Looked pretty even to the eye-cromiter lol. But I will take some pics and look closer this eve after work and post what I find. Hopefully it will help the member. Only pic I have now is of when we first split the tractor and I took a shot of the back of the eng. holes appear evenly spaced , and when I set the orig flywheel in the new engines crank it matched right up So either I got lucky and it was offset with the bolts the first try or they are even and can go any way, if that affects timing or alignment I cannot say tho Hopefully someone knows so I can get it right for install as I’d hate to have to pull it again to re align the flywheel ...???A45E16BC-C58F-4A4C-B539-052A25966532.jpeg
 

thepumpguysc

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Well hell.. I didn't mean to open a can a worms.. lol or make you second guess yourself.. BUT..
If you wanna double check your work?? open the side plate on the injection pump, 2 flathead screws & rotate the engine over until the 2 lines meet.. 1 is stationary & 1 rotates.
When they meet, look at the timing marks on the flywheel..I HOPE [for your sake] they're visible..
 

Funny farm

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Well hell.. I didn't mean to open a can a worms.. lol or make you second guess yourself.. BUT..
If you wanna double check your work?? open the side plate on the injection pump, 2 flathead screws & rotate the engine over until the 2 lines meet.. 1 is stationary & 1 rotates.
When they meet, look at the timing marks on the flywheel..I HOPE [for your sake] they're visible..
The flywheel I removed from the “new” engine had a clutch and did have timing marks. The flywheel I removed from the orig engine is for a power shuttle and as far as I can see has no marks for timing or for alignment with the part it meshes with on the transmission...???? The shuttle flywheel is in good shape and any marks would be visibale if there were any but I didn’t see any. I haven’t done anything with the inj pump or timing at all and am assuming it’s still timed and ready to run. Only concern I have with timing and alignment is if the power shuttle flywheel has to align a certain way with the trans side ? I see no obvious marks on either half. I have a CD manual for he old girl but no computer to look at it with... in the process of getting it printed and I’ll put it together in a binder. Maybe it will clarify things for me once I can see the manual.
 

Funny farm

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I’d rather the can of worms get open now before I install it and find out it’s wrong hahahhaha. Much easier to adjust flywheel alignment now if need be. Lol. Have not installed the power shuttle flywheel yet ( only finger tight) as I need to change the rms for piece of mind ( not leaking now ) before I install and torque down the ps flywheel. The clutch flywheel assemble is in amazing shape with lots of clutch pad left and decent looking friction faces, It’s useless to me if anyone needs one cheap cheap lol. Shipping might be killer tho as it weighs lots hahahaha
 

Wes J

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I'm pretty confident that Case made a gas version of that engine. It's possible the flywheel timing is only use for ignition timing on the gas version. The diesel timing may all be under the cover.
 

Funny farm

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4589B1BC-19D7-42B7-857A-78CF6CF4BE46.jpeg 6ED76B90-2C23-4366-ADFC-029CB9DCE0D4.jpeg 32760D76-591A-4830-A4FF-190ED89701E6.jpeg 1F4C3EEB-99CA-4C4B-9ECE-378B04954180.jpeg Ok so I looked closer at the power shuttle flywheel and it only lines up one way best I can tell. U can see the broken off bolt ( I will remove that lol) is in one hole on the fw and the other holes do not align. Turning the fw until the broken bolt is in the next hole, again the others don’t align. Only one spot does all the holes align. Also I looked closer and there is timing marks on the ps fw. Can’t say that they are all like this one but I’m pretty confident hat the fw will only fit one way on my engine as the bolts seem to be slightly offset of center and they only align in one way.
Does anyone know about the alignment of the power shuttle fw and the part it meshes with in the transmission side ? There’s two holes across from each other but that’s all I can find and nothing on the mating part I can find that would be alignment marks as far as I can tell by just looking. I attached pics face of the fw and of the holes mis allingned with the broken bolt in one hole and the fw on the crank flange. Also one of the tranny half that mates with the fw inner teeth. Maybe alignment of them isnt important? Hopefully someone will know or has a manual they might check for me. I still cannot access my manual on CD yet.
 
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