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Its that time of year. Lets discuss ether.

Greatwestcam

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
382
Location
Northern Alberta
Occupation
Driver/Mechanic
Just replaced an engine in a snow cat due to excessive ether. Story goes load unit on trailer in yard to go out to work, was -35c so driver let it run, got to bush and wasn't running (ran out of fuel) but didn't know it, try starting it on ether would run a bit so figured it might pick up fuel if kept cranking, called in that engine is running rough and knocking, so it gets sent back to shop, we have a look. well #5 piston seized in bore and rod broke at crank journal, crank and block are toast, $31,000 f#@k up.
We did find a complete drop in and swapped it out. Company said no more ether allowed anymore! yes we are staying busy this winter.
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
Just replaced an engine in a snow cat due to excessive ether. Story goes load unit on trailer in yard to go out to work, was -35c so driver let it run, got to bush and wasn't running (ran out of fuel) but didn't know it, try starting it on ether would run a bit so figured it might pick up fuel if kept cranking, called in that engine is running rough and knocking, so it gets sent back to shop, we have a look. well #5 piston seized in bore and rod broke at crank journal, crank and block are toast, $31,000 f#@k up.
We did find a complete drop in and swapped it out. Company said no more ether allowed anymore! yes we are staying busy this winter.

Must not of had enough upper cylinder lube in that brand?:D
 

Ronsii

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
3,464
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
s/e Heavy equipment operator
Just replaced an engine in a snow cat due to excessive ether. Story goes load unit on trailer in yard to go out to work, was -35c so driver let it run, got to bush and wasn't running (ran out of fuel) but didn't know it, try starting it on ether would run a bit so figured it might pick up fuel if kept cranking, called in that engine is running rough and knocking, so it gets sent back to shop, we have a look. well #5 piston seized in bore and rod broke at crank journal, crank and block are toast, $31,000 f#@k up.
We did find a complete drop in and swapped it out. Company said no more ether allowed anymore! yes we are staying busy this winter.

Yeah, I've seen similar....Engine quit/wouldn't start so some other 'techs' worked on it for most of the day... I get called in and show up and the first thing I notice is 5 cans (empty) of ether lying next to it with the jumpers still hooked up. So first thing I did was get their story... "basically almost runs when you shoot ether into it"
Ok so I give it a crank and what do ya know... no smoke, Hmmmmm so grab some tools rip off the kill solenoid cover and tell them to give er' a crank -- starts right up with a good rev and a pile of smoke!!!

So, I told them what they needed partswise or how to 'temporary fix' it and got outta there before things got worse.
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,323
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
Most starting fluid I've seen says it has upper cylinder lubricant and corrosion inhibitor.

I think that is just a gimmick, like they put a little WD40 or some light oil in there and it must be a very little.

Funny thing, I use ether for cleaning parts and (brake) parts cleaner for starting (mostly gas) engines.

The ether dries clean so it must not have too much lubricant in it, plus it is cheaper than parts cleaner, plus it does not attack plastics so bad.

The parts cleaner is more similar to gasoline (the same for sake of this argument) so less likely to detonate under compression.

Ether has a cetane number of about 90 (diesel is only 50) which makes it want to autoignite and flammable range of 1.9-48% which is way broader than the normal hydrocarbon fuels which are about 1.5-8% and are resistant to autoignition.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,538
Location
Canada
I think that is just a gimmick, like they put a little WD40 or some light oil in there and it must be a very little.

Funny thing, I use ether for cleaning parts and (brake) parts cleaner for starting (mostly gas) engines.

The ether dries clean so it must not have too much lubricant in it, plus it is cheaper than parts cleaner, plus it does not attack plastics so bad.

The parts cleaner is more similar to gasoline (the same for sake of this argument) so less likely to detonate under compression.

Ether has a cetane number of about 90 (diesel is only 50) which makes it want to autoignite and flammable range of 1.9-48% which is way broader than the normal hydrocarbon fuels which are about 1.5-8% and are resistant to autoignition.

I just noticed that it says that on the can but I've used ether for cleaning too and you don't notice any kind of lubricant in it. If you have an engine in good shape and your fuel is good, a small shot of ether to get it started doesn't hurt anything. Obviously the engine has to be designed for ether use. Thousands of machines came with factory ether injection systems. Imagine the warranty claims if ether was so bad. I think the problem is some people figure if a little helps a lot will help more. I saw a guy who was (apparently) a golf course mechanic spray a ridiculous amount of ether into a 14 HP gasoline engine to get it going in to bring it into the warm shop. I just shook my head when I saw that.
 

DIYDAVE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
2,419
Location
MD
I never did buy the ether washing cylinders thing. I can't imagine how much you would have to use to get any liquid ether in the cylinders, it has to be all vapor by the time it gets there. It won't even stay liquid long if you are using it to wash parts in temperatures around freezing. Plus it has to go through filters, tubes, turbos, etc. to get there. Plus to wash cylinders there would have to be enough liquid to displace a meaningful amount of the thick, cold, sticky oil.

Not to mention, that most of the starting fluid, that I find, today, is nowhere near as potent as an old can of drydene... I suspect epa has been adding sh!t to it, that works about as good as today's gas...:eek:
 

walkerv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,125
Location
wingate nc
so the moral of all this is what i have always said , only people that know how to use starting aids properly in a way that will not cause damage to an engine are the only people that should be doing so , it usually takes 2 people unless engine has built in starting aids , the truck im building into a lube truck wouldnt start the other day batteries were weak 8 years old has new ones now , anyways its a ih444e in an f650 so it has glow pluggs rather then disabling glow pluggs took the air inlet pipe off charge air cooler and gave it warm air with the torch on my service truck took a couple tries but got it going and back in shop , there is lots of ways rite and wrong to start a cold engine and if one is not sure how to do so safely one should get some dang help from someone that knows . on diesels if it aint smoking it aint gonna go , fix your fuel problem first most people i know go straight for starting fluid instead of using there eyes and nose , i keep all the ether locked up and hidden at our shop mainly becuase drivers !!!
 

Jim D

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
408
Location
California
Occupation
equipment operator
"Jim D> your beating a dead horse.. Your trying to explain how ether wont break a piston or rings to people who collectively, have 1000 years experience FIXING THIS PROBLEM, seriously?"

Yes, very seriously.

What is the physical means by which ether breaks piston rings?

Pre-ignition detonation in light weight, very high output gas engines, i.e. very high manifold pressures and lots of nitrous, will melt piston crowns, it will batter down piston ring lands, it will bend rods, but it doesn't break rings.

So how does ether break piston rings in very heavy, low output diesel engines?
 
Last edited:

Delmer

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Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
I have no idea, and it would be nice to know, but I don't NEED to know.

Possibly light weight, high output engines melting pistons at high speeds/loads/temps isn't relevant to extremely slow speed, cold engines cracking rings?

I agree that I can't explain why rings would crack. Probably the most experienced members here couldn't say with any scientific certainty why they crack, maybe not even that they do crack? I still say it's not from overspeed, but then I'm not in the habit of starting turbo, intercooled, big air filtered engines with ether. It has to go pretty close to the manifold to work, and it won't be enough to overspeed a cold diesel. Once they start, they run smooth, unless you're trying to load something on ether alone. If they knock bad, it's usually going to slow to keep turning.
 

walkerv

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,125
Location
wingate nc
"Jim D> your beating a dead horse.. Your trying to explain how ether wont break a piston or rings to people who collectively, have 1000 years experience FIXING THIS PROBLEM, seriously?"

Yes, very seriously.

What is the actual physical means by which ether breaks piston rings?

Detonation in very high output gas engines, i.e. very high manifold pressures and lots of nitrous, will melt piston crowns, it will batter down piston ring lands, it will bend rods, but it doesn't break rings.
gas engines dont have 20- 22.5:1 compression ratio on a brutally cold start up. rings are fragile , that compression ratio i listed is for small naturally aspirated diesels usually , that is what i have seen with finding broken rings. in particular a ford 1000 with 1500 hrs 2 cylinder, 6 compression rings 4 out of 6 rings were in 2 peices or more, old care takers and operators of tractor regulary used ether in it after it was overhualed i ran it 2500 hrs without any problems and if i used ether it was a drop or 2 on a corner of a paper towel wiffed by the air filter inlet , we dont know why or how it breaks them but us mechanics know what we see and usually get the rest of the story after its repaired . unless someone want to go to school to be a diesel engine design engineer and torture tester and figure out the exact physics of it we may never know . have you ever seen an inexperienced person triing to light off a diesel that wont start with a can of starting fluid? A. they soak the air filter with it or B they are smart enough to take the air filter out and spray it down the throat but dont have someone to crank it while doing so , so a **** ton gets sprayyed into the intake and then they go try and start it . remember we are not talking gas engines running nitrous we are talking very cold weather diesels starting dead cold , alot of diesels arent using some kind of an exotic piston ring either like those gas engines you described above . actually physical means was already explained ether detonates on pistons travel upwards triing to push piston wrong way then when that force is over come here comes a fuel injection cycle then it repeats untill the ether is gone, now do this all the time something is bound to give up the ghost and get fatiqued, thats my theory on how and why they get broke into peices . only a guess but just a logical one . one would have to know the actuall cylinder pressures and tensile strength of rings and how much pressure actually got to them and have to make a test engine to figure out how and what it takes to break a particullaer engines rings , im not planning on going to school for this i just keep the ether locked up so some jo blow cant spray a whole can of it into an engine before they call me out for a no start .
 

DMiller

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Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
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Hermann, Missouri
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Cheap "old" Geezer
I still remember that double disc Cummins six bolt head engine that over revved and popped the center head(did have previously broken at least cracked head bolts) where never expected to see anything that destructive but the dummy trying to start it loaded the oil bath air cleaner with a FULL can of starting fluid, maybe more.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,440
Location
Oklahoma
I tried using ether once for cleaning when I ran out of brake cleaner in the field. Works great, but when I used it, was a cold ass day and I had gloves on. Finished cleaning my parts and not thinking, attempted to light a smoke. Yeah the "Boom " at my face caught my hair on fire, and my gloves of course. My barber laughed his ass off when I walked in the next morning.
 

Birken Vogt

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Nov 30, 2003
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5,323
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Grass Valley, Ca
Yes, if I am going to hose an area down with ether I think ahead to be sure there will be plenty of time for it to evaporate and blow away before I have to start something or cause a source of ignition in that area.
 

RZucker

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Jul 7, 2013
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Wherever I end up
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I still remember that double disc Cummins six bolt head engine that over revved and popped the center head(did have previously broken at least cracked head bolts) where never expected to see anything that destructive but the dummy trying to start it loaded the oil bath air cleaner with a FULL can of starting fluid, maybe more.
It had nothing to do with ether, but I was working around a Gardner-Denver W series compressor that spit the middle 2 cylinders into the air once. That was exciting.
 

RZucker

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Wherever I end up
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Runaway? Or just decided was 'Tired'?
Mostly just tired. It was the second stage cylinder bank, a piston came apart and stacked up to hit the head hard. Broke the flange that held the cylinders to the crankcase and sheared the inlet and outlet flange bolts, tore off the water lines, threw the cylinders and head about 20 feet and left the 2 pistons and rods flailing about.
It had a 12V71 driving it and luckily there were E-stop buttons everywhere.
 

td25c

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Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
That's funny with the gas engine talk, I had that last week in the cold. We've got three trucks, a 2001 dodge cummins, 2000 ford with 7.3, and a 1992 ford 460. (one ton dodge- fords are 450's)

The cold snap got the 7.3 with a little ice in the fuel line, the power steering pump/ brake booster on the 5.9 doesn't like below 30 very much, but the 460 fires right up and has the best heater. It was the go to rig here last week, it came and pulled the 7.3 to the shop when it gave up the ghost.

If it wasn't for the horrible fuel mileage, I would take it over the other two trucks.

Good points crane op !

Pay's to keep some gas burners around when everything else fails to start . Pull the choke & fire it up !

No either needed on those rigs .

I generally plug the diesels in & let them warm up for an hour or so before starting in cold weather snow fall .
While they are warming fire up the 170 Allis-Chalmers gas powered rough terrain crane & start slammin the snow out of the way . Heater on the 170 aint nothin to brag about but ya stay warm yankin the levers .:D

Ford Galaxie heater will run ya out of the cab :)100_4131.JPG
 

PJ The Kid

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Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
230
Location
KC
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Mechanic
I'm gonna hijack this for a minute>>
On another site, there was a fella who, at one time awhile back, filled his diesel w/ gasoline.. & he now has a problem starting his engine[cold weather] & was suspicious of the fuel he just put in...
I posted that service stations make mistakes all the time.. & he could pull his filter, pour some out & hit it w/ a lighter..
IF it was gas, it would flame-up quick.. IF it was diesel, it wouldn't..
THEN I got hit w/ a dozen comment like> "you don't know sh*t" "diesel fuel WILL flame-up" & "we use diesel fuel to start brush fires" THEN there was 1 guy who dared me to put diesel fuel on a paper towel & lite it, just to PROVE it will flame up..& the comments went on & on...
OFCOURSE the paper towel is gonna burn, you idiot.!!! [I didn't write or post that last comment]
I've put a lighter to 1000's of "fuel puddles" to SEE what the fuel was... I have NEVER in my entire life had diesel fuel "flame up".

They (including the forman) thought I was crazy at the last dealer I worked at for doing this to diagnose a few different vehicles.
 
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