Dozer hard to start

coastbuster · Oct 7, 2017

Hi Guys,
I have a circa 2000 d3 Cat dozer that for years started instantly after turning the key. Just recently it started taking 10 to 15 seconds to fire up.Runs normal from then on but will do the same thing after every shutdown and restart,warm or cold. Someone told me to change filters but a diesel mechanic who I respect for his ability says it's most likely the fuel lift pump. Where is this pump located? Attached to the injector pump I see an electric type pump or motor of some kind. Could this be it? Any help appreciated. Attached is a pic of the injector side of the engine. Dan

Old Magnet · Oct 7, 2017

I believe that is a combination fuel transfer and manual priming pump. Used on some of the D3B's.
What you are calling an electric motor is a solenoid operated shut off.

kshansen · Oct 7, 2017

Old Magnet said:
I believe that is a combination fuel transfer and manual priming pump. Used on some of the D3B's.
What you are calling an electric motor is a solenoid operated shut off.

I'm not familiar with that particular injection pump but as Old Magnet says it is most likely right where I circled in red. A plunger type pump working off the cam shaft in the injection pump.

Possibly with a full S/N someone might be able to upload a parts breakdown or other information.

thepumpguysc · Oct 7, 2017

The RED circle IS the lift pump.. Check the banjo bolt connector below the hand primer.. it has a screen filter in it.. probably full of sticks & junk.. it unscrews from the bolt.. unscrew, blow it off & reinstall..
Use the hand primer to pump the fuel back up before trying to restart the engine..
& as stated> the electrical "gizmo" is the shut off solenoid..

coastbuster · Oct 7, 2017

thepumpguysc said:
The RED circle IS the lift pump.. Check the banjo bolt connector below the hand primer.. it has a screen filter in it.. probably full of sticks & junk.. it unscrews from the bolt.. unscrew, blow it off & reinstall..
Use the hand primer to pump the fuel back up before trying to restart the engine..
& as stated> the electrical "gizmo" is the shut off solenoid..

Ok guys thanks alot. The Banjo bolt you refer to,is that the 1" looking nut facing horizontal below the primer hand pump?

DMiller · Oct 7, 2017

I am trying to understand the automotive inline gas filter to the transfer pump, what would that be doing there?

Old Magnet · Oct 7, 2017

Looks like someone has substituted a gas line filter for the pump suction. My D3B parts book does not show a filter in the normal banjo fitting and the fitting is an integral part of the line. I'd be suspect of that substitute filter.
Here is what I'm working from...

DMiller · Oct 7, 2017

By appearance they had previous issues with trash, added a inline, probably need to clean the tank and lines while eliminating that little bugger. Probably choked up.

Plant Fitter · Oct 7, 2017

Old Magnet said:
Looks like someone has substituted a gas line filter for the pump suction. My D3B parts book does not show a filter in the normal banjo fitting and the fitting is an integral part of the line. I'd be suspect of that substitute filter.
Here is what I'm working from...

If it's "circa 2000" then it's not a D3B, and would most likely have the Perkins engine instead?

thepumpguysc · Oct 7, 2017

Yes.. the 1" looking banjo bolt on the bottom, BELOW the hand primer..
I'v seen those inline filters ALOT.. just make sure the "flow arrow" is going in the correct direction.. TOWARDS the lift pump..
They may have removed the filter screen because it kept getting clogged & installed the inline filter.??
In any case, clean the screen & replace the inline filter w/ new one.. The part # should be stamped on it..
IF NOT, take it w/ you to the parts house..

Old Magnet · Oct 7, 2017

Need a tractor s/n. Looked up the D3C Series III and they apparently started using the early style pump again. This would be for years 1993 to 2002. This would be on the 3046 engine 5XK1-up. Should have caught the six injector pump initially, oh well!!

Welder Dave · Oct 7, 2017

That screen is similar to the screen on my later model 931B (without the manual primer) that threads into a hex fitting at the lift pump. It gave me fits a few years ago and I just had to clean it again a couple weeks ago. Engine will get to where it will only idle and die with more throttle. Then get so the machine dies, you let it sit for 10 minutes and it will start again but acts up in 15 seconds. Screen had what looks like ground up tree bark in it.

menace · Oct 7, 2017

Your second photo shows a filter marked as 8\14 in magic marker! Almost 4 years ago, its about WAY overdue to be replaced! Start there and see what happens! Also, change automotive inline filter, Cats dont like water!!

Tenwheeler · Oct 7, 2017

DMiller said:
By appearance they had previous issues with trash, added a inline, probably need to clean the tank and lines while eliminating that little bugger. Probably choked up.

True: But my experience with these type fuel systems when slow to start is. 1: The plastic valves in the supply pump are leaking back loosing pressure to the fuel rail (manifold). Check them out and I sand them on fine paper in the field. If in question replace them, their cheep. 2: At the left side of the fuel rail, just below where the injection lines hook up on top of the pump, is the injection pump fuel return line. I believe that should have a pressure regulator in it which is set at about 20 PSI. The fuel manifold should have pressure on it at all times. If it is leaking off either end the engine has to crank intel it builds pressure again. All other things mentioned are good points I would just expect many of them to cause low power not slow start?

Delmer · Oct 7, 2017

I agree, if that's plugged, it will usually start and then die. Take that whole pump apart, everything you see in post #11 and do like Tenwheeler says.

If that doesn't help, try priming it before you try to start it, unscrew that knurled round handle, it will pop up, pump that until you feel resistance, then a few more, then hold down and screw in. See if it starts better when manually primed.

The banjo bolt is #14 in the diagram in post #11. It's 19mm/ 3/4", or maybe 17mm, not the 1" plug you can see in the pics.

coastbuster · Oct 8, 2017

Delmer said:
I agree, if that's plugged, it will usually start and then die. Take that whole pump apart, everything you see in post #11 and do like Tenwheeler says.

If that doesn't help, try priming it before you try to start it, unscrew that knurled round handle, it will pop up, pump that until you feel resistance, then a few more, then hold down and screw in. See if it starts better when manually primed.

The banjo bolt is #14 in the diagram in post #11. It's 19mm/ 3/4", or maybe 17mm, not the 1" plug you can see in the pics.

Tenwheeler said:
True: But my experience with these type fuel systems when slow to start is. 1: The plastic valves in the supply pump are leaking back loosing pressure to the fuel rail (manifold). Check them out and I sand them on fine paper in the field. If in question replace them, their cheep. 2: At the left side of the fuel rail, just below where the injection lines hook up on top of the pump, is the injection pump fuel return line. I believe that should have a pressure regulator in it which is set at about 20 PSI. The fuel manifold should have pressure on it at all times. If it is leaking off either end the engine has to crank intel it builds pressure again. All other things mentioned are good points I would just expect many of them to cause low power not slow start?

Thanks Ten,That's the problem. It's slow starting but after startup,runs normally with full power. I undid the banjo bolt #14 and the screen filter was apparently missing explaining the reason for the inline filter. So,I think your theory of a leakage away from the fuel rail is probably correct. My question now would be,where is the supply pump with the plastic valves located? Is it a separate pump from the primer pump?

pp13bnos · Oct 8, 2017

I'd start with what Menace says. Filters are cheap and easy, and even if its not the solution, it still is way over due for a change.

DMiller · Oct 8, 2017

The transfer pump is the block assembly
The priming pump is only the little pistn plunger installed in the left port. Nothing electric or engine driven besides.

DMiller · Oct 8, 2017

To explain
The block in the picture with that hand primer on it is a single piston positive displacement pump, it runs on the injector pump cam drawing and feeding more fuel than that inj pump needs to lubricate to cool and to keep air out. That entire block assembly is a pump with a priming pump attached.

coastbuster · Oct 8, 2017

DMiller said:
To explain
The block in the picture with that hand primer on it is a single piston positive displacement pump, it runs on the injector pump cam drawing and feeding more fuel than that inj pump needs to lubricate to cool and to keep air out. That entire block assembly is a pump with a priming pump attached.

From what I'm seeing on Old Magnets fuel diagram,the valves that Ten Wheeler is referring to are labeled #3 and there are 2 of them. Are those the ones that should be replaced or sanded down?

Dozer hard to start

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