The Ultimate Medium Dozer?

In one word; Servicability. I've spent my life working on cars, motorcycles and such. When I started to buy and use heavy equipment,
I was shocked to see how poorly thought out some aspects of the machines were. In a world where time = money I expected the ability to keep the machine up and running would be a high priority during the design process.

Ive' now worked on Cat, Deere, Mack and some cottage industry brands. Inaccessible bolts, seals that you know will go bad over time in locations requiring major disassembly to get at, hoses trapped between two large hard to remove parts, no proper drain points for fluid systems, etc., etc. I could make a list that goes on for pages. There's nothing like reading "Remove ROPS and cab from machine..." as the start of a procedure to replace a simple hydraulic return hose when all it would take is to make the hose 3" longer to clear the cab.

It's why older used machines are frequently such a money sink. Once the second or third owner has the machine, they can't / won't service some of the more difficult to do items due to cost or effort. When the machine no longer works right, it gets cleaned up / painted and is put up for sale.

In my special hell for the people that create these things, they would spend all day every day fixing 30 year old, extra greasy, rusty, neglected machines on the Alaskan north slope...

I hear ya and feel the same pains. Started off in the industry in 1976, machines have not changed for the better nor for serviceable. I own a '74 Allis, it is as or more serviceable than a comparable Cat or Deere twenty years newer and as far as hydrostats I really think NOT even close. Manufacturers do not care if not serviceable, actually preferring to keep them as far out as tenable so they keep a market share of repair time and good turnover as owners care not to work on their own machines. Many mechanics I worked aside in the 70's gave it up years ago unwilling to keep up with tools changes 'Upgrades' and the incessant training that never met the mark as to teaching how to effectively work on these critters. Pay has not followed garage rates as the impact of hours losses against 'Book time' mounted in the late 80's/90's. Is easy enough to take a new machine, tear it down and reassemble three or five even ten times with all the handy tooling for a given charge time but being in field or after hundreds of hours in soup and muck changes all parameters.

Cars and trucks are the same, nothing left to the owners for servicing just maintenance items as lube and oil or filters, everything else is buried alive. Times have changed but not considerations as to expense.

Ferdinand is right, they really make it hard for mechanics to reach those places if they need to be fixed. They just designed it just for the sake of "not our problem anymore once it is sold". lol

I too agree with Ferdinand on most of his points, especially the Paint Job Overhaul machines.

Looking at some of the newer dozers seems like some of these suggestions have been incorporated. Looking at the new Komatsu. Forward cab rear cooling with stacked coolers able to keep clean fairly easy. Great visibility. John Deere has done a lot to improve visibility and operator comfort. Case tried a tilting cab for a series. Then quit doing it. Not sure why seems like a awesome idea. Not sure what cat has done, don't know much about there later machines. Out of my price range. It's crazy how soft we've become compared to 30 years ago. Pretty soon one guy will operate a couple dozers from a office remotely. A lot easier to build a machine that doesn't need a cab to house some bitching operator that doesn't want to show up to work. Not trying to be a pill, I like nice comfortable stuff as much as the next guy. But there's a point we're you have to be able to afford it. And afford to maintain all this fancy stuff. We don't have the option to buy simple stuff any more. If you can find something simple it's some no name import crap that you can't get parts for. Every farmer and rancher used to own a dozer and grader just to mantian there roads. They were simple machines that lasted a lifetime that they could afford to buy. Now the fancy machines cost more than you can afford to buy and if they last ten years the plastic and wiring is rotten. Better have a good banker and just keep financing that new fancy machine. These new machines are only good for the bankers and corporations that make them. If they build a machine that is simple and lasts for ever then how would they stay in business. This trend will eventually put operators out of a job. Can't afford to pay a person to operate that fancy machine anymore, it costs to much. Lord help us. We need simpler less complicated cheaper robust machines.

Magard said:

Looking at some of the newer dozers seems like some of these suggestions have been incorporated. Looking at the new Komatsu. Forward cab rear cooling with stacked coolers able to keep clean fairly easy. Great visibility. John Deere has done a lot to improve visibility and operator comfort. Case tried a tilting cab for a series. Then quit doing it. Not sure why seems like a awesome idea. Not sure what cat has done, don't know much about there later machines. Out of my price range. It's crazy how soft we've become compared to 30 years ago. Pretty soon one guy will operate a couple dozers from a office remotely. A lot easier to build a machine that doesn't need a cab to house some bitching operator that doesn't want to show up to work. Not trying to be a pill, I like nice comfortable stuff as much as the next guy. But there's a point we're you have to be able to afford it. And afford to maintain all this fancy stuff. We don't have the option to buy simple stuff any more. If you can find something simple it's some no name import crap that you can't get parts for. Every farmer and rancher used to own a dozer and grader just to mantian there roads. They were simple machines that lasted a lifetime that they could afford to buy. Now the fancy machines cost more than you can afford to buy and if they last ten years the plastic and wiring is rotten. Better have a good banker and just keep financing that new fancy machine. These new machines are only good for the bankers and corporations that make them. If they build a machine that is simple and lasts for ever then how would they stay in business. This trend will eventually put operators out of a job. Can't afford to pay a person to operate that fancy machine anymore, it costs to much. Lord help us. We need simpler less complicated cheaper robust machines.

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yeah , a lot of those old dozers are still going in NZ , a good D47U sells around K$7500 . Well sort after and tightly held by subsequent generations of family farmers . Simple , two spanner sizes do most jobs . Fancy kung fu D31's have a nasty oil seal that's a major job @ about 4000 hrs . Just so happens a lot of affordable second hand imports come in around 4000 hr mark . I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented with designing a "new dozer" , they are there now , just not built any more . I have always thought the high track Caterpillar were designed by somebody working for Komatsu , engineered obsolescence . If there has been a peak in excellence in Caterpillar of longevity , cost , simplicity it must surly have been with the D4D , D6D ,D7G , D8K and the D9H . I had not forgotten the D5 , just don't see it measured up .

I hear the new D65EX Komatsu dozers are tough to beat

Looks to be a cloned 850K Deere depending on the drive train.

I will stick with the old junk.

I agree with DMiller. I will stick with the old junk. What ever happened to the old TD-15 B, where it had an optional roll cage, a 140,000 pound winch, and 1 button to start the dang thing, and 2 switches, a kill switch, and a switch for the lights. The new junk, as Magard says, lasts 10 years, if you're lucky, and don't screw anything up. The new machines have climate control, DEF, satellite trackers, radios, on board diagnostics systems with 48 independent computers, and laser planning software. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS WAY?!?!These old machines, they last FOREVER, and you couldn't kill that thing if you buried it in the ground for 10 years. What about the small rancher who doesn't need a $450,000 piece of plastic, but needs a powerful machine to do some digging, move some trees, or knock down an old building?

I agree with Ferdinand. In MY special Hell, I would put them in the middle of the North Slope, in a crappily built shop that leaks heat, waiting a month to get a specialty part, no manuals, no computers, and no specialty tools, with a long line of dozers and angry operators waiting fpr their machine to be fixed while work goes on without them on the TAPS*, which is costing the repair shop money, and the operators.

*=(Trans-Alaska Pipeline System. Google it.)

OK to ship some car/light truck designers to the special hell?

heck yeah!

It's crazy to think that if you've been around for 25 years or more, you can almost pinpoint the high tide mark in pretty much all things mechanical. The point at which, in later models 1 small lever was replaced with a choice of 5 buttons & 6 solenoids, where you couldn't see the engine for all the gizmos plastic clipped around it. Somewhere in the late '80's was the rough time it happened.

There are still some nice machines turned out before tier 3 that seem beautifully bombproof compared to the latest highly technical, incredibly expensive, very weak offerings.

Apologies, been quite a day and on 2nd beer just before dinner..

Ps. Crook donks d9h gets my vote!

80's were bad, lots of manufacturer sell outs/mergers/cloning and converting that all in all failed miserably, then the 90's sort of settled out with 953B and other almost electronic crawlers the Liebherr Deere combination almost complete then the 2000's and all hell again with the D series loaders, absolute low hour fall apart crap, high dollar replacement parts that were scarce and then a few getting reman'd that did not last, now we are in tier 4 looking at the next run of crap to come out and Shantui Crawlers are becoming the rage, clones of lesser grade whatever in the hell they can make work together. Not good, not at all good.

I agree machines aren't easy to work on and even some older machines were hard to work on depending on what repair was needed. That said, sometimes it is very difficult to make things easier to service because of space limitations, size of components, etc. My dad sold sold turf equipment for years and listened to a lot of mechanics complaints. Some were legit, like putting a pipe extension on an oil drain so it didn't run all over the frame. My dad had enough clout in the industry he called the factory and had this change incorporated. On the other hand he said if you tried to build a machine with everything the mechanics and operators complained about fixed, you wouldn't be able to build that machine. It would be an over engineered piece of crap.

What I do not get as to the newer hard to work on equipment is the engineers still do not go talk with the field as to most common failures and what to do to make those easier to work. Rerouting lines, electrical, not burying soft target components well out of reach when they can be mounted exposed. And a lack or considered waste of time for allowance to do so is no response as to companies wanting to sell a quality machine.

General Dynamics can build a Abrams war machine three guys can change an entire power pack in under four hours, engineering at HE builders can improve their machines further than they have.

DMiller said:

What I do not get as to the newer hard to work on equipment is the engineers still do not go talk with the field as to most common failures and what to do to make those easier to work. Rerouting lines, electrical, not burying soft target components well out of reach when they can be mounted exposed. And a lack or considered waste of time for allowance to do so is no response as to companies wanting to sell a quality machine.

General Dynamics can build a Abrams war machine three guys can change an entire power pack in under four hours, engineering at HE builders can improve their machines further than they have.

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Dealer support. If the manufacturer builds a machine that we all could work on. Then why would the dealer need machanics. Dealers have to be making good money of the shops. Think about all the return business they get. I thought the case dozers with the tilt over cab was a good step in the direction of making them easier to work on. But they stoped doing it. To expensive to build and hurts the dealer. Even if you take it to the dealer to get worked on it still shortens the job time to fix which hurts the dealer.

Unfortunately for dealers, shop work hasn't been as lucrative as most people seem to think in the last ten to fifteen years. Good dealer mechanics are not easy to come by and customers are always picking them out of the dealerships offering a few more dollars per hour and some autonomy on how service and repair work is accomplished. The issue with design comes from the government with legislated systems being bolted on top already crammed engine compartments. You have to try to make the machine look good after that so more sheet metal is bolted on top. That's more a point on how or if you voted in elections twenty years ago.

Yes there are a lot of aspects now on machines that make it different and needing new skills to troubleshoot and repair them. But back when I started the issues were much the same. Gear and vane hydraulic pumps that lasted about 2,500 hours, diesel engines that needed an in frame at 4,000 to 5,000 hours. I worked on a Hough loader one time trying to change a starter. Because of the frame clearance I had to unbolt the engine and lift it with a crane just to get the starter out. I don't need a hundred ton press to remove a sprocket from a dozer anymore. They did away with the pancake press rigs and all the special brackets when working on steering clutches and final drives. I can change control patterns in excavators now without having to cut up the bell cranks and rods underneath the cab. Motors in an excavator can be swapped out in about a day and half by one person with a service truck mounted crane. I don't often need to use a multiplier and big torque wrench when the hydraulic wrench is available.

My point in all this comes from the perspective of looking back over forty years of making a living in this industry. I'll take a computer, harness connector and some software any day over five foot long bars, twenty pound hammers, fifty ton jacks and hundred ton presses.

If the job was easy anybody could do it. No one says you have to buy a machine and when you do you have to accept it for what it is.

In its day, a D7E D339 75E military version dozer. Not fast but certain and reliable well balanced machine. Whatever you put in front of the machine it would reach down and grunt throwing the four paint can size pistons to the work.

oh, yeah! Just like the TD15B