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Help with a 3 Cylinder Detroit

movindirt

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Hello all, bought a Gomaco curb machine with a 3 cylinder Detroit in it, it appears it run out of fuel, it cranks over and smokes, but will not fire, any suggestions? Here are some pictures of the engine. Thanks!20170328_141343.jpg 20170328_141127.jpg are some pictures of the engine. 20170328_141353.jpg 20170328_141133.jpg 20170328_141133.jpg
 

Former Wrench

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Here are a couple of simple ideas. Check to be sure the emergency shut down flapper is not tripped first.

The fuel system on this works like this: Tank to fuel strainer to pump to fuel filter to head, through injectors and jumper lines, to restricted fitting in back of head, to tank. Get an old style golden eagle oil can. Remove the neck and install a brass fitting that connects to a short hose that you will have to make up. Now pull a plug from the fuel filter (the sock like filter), install a fitting and the hose from the can. First fill the can with diesel then pump it into the filter. 10-15 squirts should do it. Try starting. You will have pushed any air out of the system with the pump. It should start. If it doesn't It is most likely not a fuel issue. Next, take off the valve cover and make sure the injectors are free by operating the rack. It could be one is frozen in the no fuel position. See if that works. If not, time to dig deeper.
 

kshansen

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Okay, first question would be did you hear it running then quit?

In the picture below inside the red circle is the latch device for the emergency shut down. Make sure that little lever is all the way down and the latch the cable is connected to is in the notch in the cam the little lever is in.

You say it "might have run out of fuel", I'm assuming you have filled or at the least added a few gallons to the tank? Did you then remove and fill the fuel filters? Does this machine have a hand or electric priming pump? Some do, some don't have any.

In the picture below in the green circle is the fuel pump. It should have two lines coming out of the cover where you can see the one going straight towds the flywheel housing. One should come from the primary fuel filter. The other one is the output line to the secondary filter. Primary filter would be the one that the line from the tank hooks to, the secondary fuel filter would have one line from the fuel pump and the other line would go to a fitting in the cylinder head.

Once you have determined the outlet fitting for the fuel pump you could disconnect it and try cranking over the engine and see if fuel comes out, it won't pump a lot but there should be definite flow while cranking if there is fuel in the tank and the primary filter is full of fuel.

If you are not getting any fuel flow one of the next things I might suggest is to remove the inlet housing from the blower, remove the four bolts circled in blue and what ever is up on the top to connect to the air filter. With that off you will see the rotors of the blower. Do NOT touch them if someone is near the starter button! But try to rotate them by hand they may have a little free play but should not turn by hand.

I could go on more but try doing that much and let us know what you find. Others may jump in with some more ideas and I have no problem with that but just wanted to approach it from what I might try if it was sitting out in my garage. A lot would depend on what if any knowledge I had of last time it ran and what care it had over the years. Like if this was parked for 2 years or more and fuel tank was full of water, then I would be looking at seized injectors. If that is the case I would make damn sure that emergency trip cable and flapper were in working condition!

Posted that then forgot to include the picture!
3-71.png
 

Ronsii

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Your shut down flapper looks good in pic#3 I would lean towards a fuel problem first, Former Wrench and Kshansen's post pretty much cover what you need to check first.... one other thing is these have to crank at a good rate to get going sometimes especially if they're a bit worn on the rings... so make sure you have some good batteries and jumpers on there right off the get go.
 

lantraxco

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Normally I would say check the emergency air shutoff
Your shut down flapper looks good in pic#3 I would lean towards a fuel problem first, Former Wrench and Kshansen's post pretty much cover what you need to check first.... one other thing is these have to crank at a good rate to get going sometimes especially if they're a bit worn on the rings... so make sure you have some good batteries and jumpers on there right off the get go.
Ah yes, but WHEN were the pictures taken? Perry Mason wants to know, lol
 

kshansen

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OK, went back and took a look and see the first half of the first sentence, "Hello all, bought a Gomaco curb machine with a 3 cylinder Detroit in it,"

That reinforces my first question, in other words, when was it last run?
 

movindirt

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First off, thanks for the info everyone!!
Okay, first question would be did you hear it running then quit?

I did not hear it quit, it was running that morning when I went to look at other equipment, when I got back over to it that afternoon it was shutoff and the fuel gauge was on Empty.

In the picture below inside the red circle is the latch device for the emergency shut down. Make sure that little lever is all the way down and the latch the cable is connected to is in the notch in the cam the little lever is in.

Moved the cable and everything appears to be moving on the outside.

You say it "might have run out of fuel", I'm assuming you have filled or at the least added a few gallons to the tank? Did you then remove and fill the fuel filters? Does this machine have a hand or electric priming pump? Some do, some don't have any.

I put about 10 gallons of diesel in the tank, didn't do the fuel filters because to get them I have to remove the top panel, didn't have the wrenches with me to do that. I'm not sure on the priming pump, I don't think it is electric if it has one.

In the picture below in the green circle is the fuel pump. It should have two lines coming out of the cover where you can see the one going straight towards the flywheel housing. One should come from the primary fuel filter. The other one is the output line to the secondary filter. Primary filter would be the one that the line from the tank hooks to, the secondary fuel filter would have one line from the fuel pump and the other line would go to a fitting in the cylinder head.

Once you have determined the outlet fitting for the fuel pump you could disconnect it and try cranking over the engine and see if fuel comes out, it won't pump a lot but there should be definite flow while cranking if there is fuel in the tank and the primary filter is full of fuel.

If you are not getting any fuel flow one of the next things I might suggest is to remove the inlet housing from the blower, remove the four bolts circled in blue and what ever is up on the top to connect to the air filter. With that off you will see the rotors of the blower. Do NOT touch them if someone is near the starter button! But try to rotate them by hand they may have a little free play but should not turn by hand.

I'll give those a try.

I could go on more but try doing that much and let us know what you find. Others may jump in with some more ideas and I have no problem with that but just wanted to approach it from what I might try if it was sitting out in my garage. A lot would depend on what if any knowledge I had of last time it ran and what care it had over the years. Like if this was parked for 2 years or more and fuel tank was full of water, then I would be looking at seized injectors. If that is the case I would make damn sure that emergency trip cable and flapper were in working condition!

Posted that then forgot to include the picture!
View attachment 166937

It was running that morning, so I am fairly certain it ran out of fuel, not 100% sure though.

We pulled the air cleaner lines off and gave it a bit of ether, it didn't change anything, didn't act any different with the ether than without it, would the shutoff flapper effect that? I didn't think to try the ether with the flapper pulled the other way.

Its about 2 hours away, I'm not sure if I'll get back there tomorrow or not, I'll let you all know when I go give it a try.
 

lantraxco

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When they work right, the emergency shutoff flapper closes off the blower intake completely, if air can't get in, ether can't get in, and even if it did, still no oxygen for combustion.
 

breg099

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If you are certain it ran out of fuel it may be air locked, im assuming you have dealt with this kind of thing before. Detroits are notoriously bad when they get locked up I spend over 20 hrs once cracking all the fuel lines, rail and filters trying to get it to go. The truck left on its first delivery after a service and i got called out on the job site. That company used to haul construction supplies and build trusses. As soon as the driver turned the pto on to work the crane it quit. It was so bad i had to keep boosting the truck with my jeep to crank it
 

kshansen

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If you are certain it ran out of fuel it may be air locked, im assuming you have dealt with this kind of thing before. Detroits are notoriously bad when they get locked up I spend over 20 hrs once cracking all the fuel lines, rail and filters trying to get it to go. The truck left on its first delivery after a service and i got called out on the job site. That company used to haul construction supplies and build trusses. As soon as the driver turned the pto on to work the crane it quit. It was so bad i had to keep boosting the truck with my jeep to crank it
I don't recall Detroits as being hard to start after running out of fuel or changing filters, but then most of ours had the fuel tank mounted up high so it was mostly gravity fed.

A small electric pump sucking out of a gallon jug should be fine to prime the system assuming there isn't a problem with a plugged line or fitting.



One really needs to know how those emergency shut downs work, just the other day on this forum there was a guy with a 3-53 that died and after a long explanation of how to reset the shut down it started right up and ran fine. It is about the simplest device one could design! Big flapper that slams shut on the intake! Not exactly rocket science.

3-71 latch.png
Maybe this crude picture will help. The black part is the "cam" that is on the shaft that goes into the housing and inside the housing is the big flapper that blocks off the air flow. The red triangle part represents the spring loaded "latch" that holds it in the run position. Green line is the cable that is pulled to activate the "shut down". The blue line is the lever you push one to rest the shut down. In this drawing you will be rotating the cam clockwise to reset the shut down. When the red latch is in the position where it is shown in this drawing it will hold the flapper open and engine should run.

This is a bit over simplified and exaggerated of a drawing but I hope it makes enough sense so one can understand how to reset the shut down or tell if it is in fact tripped.

Note in some applications there is no cable to activate this shut down and in others there might be a solenoid or even an air cylinder attached there to activate the shut down but the basic operation is still the same.

As I said before there are many possible reasons this engine will not start, one could write a book on the many possibilities, but you have to start somewhere and it has always been my idea that you start with the simple and cheap things that take little work to check. Save the ones that require a major tear-down for a last resort!
 
Last edited:

movindirt

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Thanks for the drawing and explanation kshansen! I have been around a number of other diesel engines that have run out of fuel, most seem to fire up with seemingly no issue at all, this is the first time I have done anything with a Detroit engine, I have no experience whatsoever with one, so thanks to everyone who has commented so far!!!
 

lantraxco

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Seen one old guy had like a locomotive pump oiling can with a hose on it to fit the fuel filter, hand pump fuel until she caught, then shut it down and hook up the normal fuel line. This was on 6-71's that oil can must have held near half a gallon, lol.
 

kshansen

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Seen one old guy had like a locomotive pump oiling can with a hose on it to fit the fuel filter, hand pump fuel until she caught, then shut it down and hook up the normal fuel line. This was on 6-71's that oil can must have held near half a gallon, lol.
That would work just fine with these old Detroits, as they really only need to have some flow of fuel through the head passages/ The injector does all the pressure work! And the head passages should be more or less self bleeding with only the orifice fitting on the outlet to restrict the flow back to the tank.
 

old-iron-habit

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As others have said fill both filters. It may be benificial to use a temporary tank set higher than the engine connected to the intake of the primary filter. Bleed it by gravity by loosening the closest fitting to the head you can get to. When clean flow with no bubbles get there then tighten and give it a bit more flow to fill the head. Provided the e-stop is open spin it over fast as mentioned and it should fire. I have seen unknowing people flip the e-stop to kill an engine because they never knew any better. I have seen them flipped at an auction more than once. It may still take a shot of ether to fire even if warm outside. If it set for a long time or if it well worn the rings might not be sealing well. If sticky from setting they will normally free up with a good warm workout. We look forward to the video of it purring.
 

Knepptune

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Talking about the emergency flaps, reminded me of a crane that the flap got flipped shut on somehow. It started and ran but man did it smoke. That one took me a little bit to figure out. They had added hyd oil to the crane earlier in the day, only issue was they added it to the fuel tank. The old jimmy was running on 3 parts hyd oil to one part diesel fuel. I reset the shut off and she ran like a scared rabbit. I'm sure it was a bit smokey till the oil was all burned through. Gave me a new respect for those Detroits.

I know none of this is helpful. But it may be entertaining. Lol
 

movindirt

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Hey Guys, went to pick the machine up today, took about every tool we could think of that we might need (service truck isn't done yet). Got there, pulled the panels off the engine bay and went to take the fuel filters off, figured first I'd move the linkage on the emergency shutoff and try starting it before I started pulling too much stuff apart, reset the linkage and hit the key, fired right up! I was tickled pink!! It ran great loading it and then unloading it at the shop. It would appear someone used the emergency shutoff to kill it and it didn't "reset" afterward. Here is a picture
20170403_204029.jpg

the spring loaded tab inside the black circle holds the flapper open I guess, when the emergency stop is pulled it lets that spring loaded tab move towards the engine and close the flapper. Didn't know to check that the first time I tried to start it, but, thanks to you guys I checked it this time!! :D Got it loaded up and hauled to the shop, going to have to track down a manual for it, its a Gomaco GT6300.
20170403_205602 (1).jpg

Thanks for the help everyone!!!!
 

kshansen

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Hey Guys, went to pick the machine up today, took about every tool we could think of that we might need (service truck isn't done yet). Got there, pulled the panels off the engine bay and went to take the fuel filters off, figured first I'd move the linkage on the emergency shutoff and try starting it before I started pulling too much stuff apart, reset the linkage and hit the key, fired right up! I was tickled pink!! It ran great loading it and then unloading it at the shop. It would appear someone used the emergency shutoff to kill it and it didn't "reset" afterward.

Glad to hear that! That makes two different Detroits that were "fixed" in just the last few weeks with nothing more than the twist of the wrist on that part.

Hope my crude little drawing back in post #10 help you understand the way that shut down worked.

Nice looking old COE IH there, guessing from the dual stacks it is running a V8 Detroit too?
 

movindirt

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Glad to hear that! That makes two different Detroits that were "fixed" in just the last few weeks with nothing more than the twist of the wrist on that part.

Hope my crude little drawing back in post #10 help you understand the way that shut down worked.

Nice looking old COE IH there, guessing from the dual stacks it is running a V8 Detroit too?

Yeah, your drawing was helpful for sure! Actually, the COE has a 400hp Big Cam Cummins in it, I'd rather have it over a Detroit any day. Haha.
 

kshansen

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Yeah, your drawing was helpful for sure! Actually, the COE has a 400hp Big Cam Cummins in it, I'd rather have it over a Detroit any day. Haha.
Got nothing against a Comealong for sure! Just don't make the same "music" as a Detroit!
 
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