Detroit 2-Cycles in 2017+

I still look after a bunch of old Detroit's. No problems getting parts yet, I've actually had more trouble getting parts for 70's Cummins engines. One of them is a 4-53 in a Whiting 9TM Trackmobile, still slugging it out and screaming all day long. There's also a 8V-53 in a fire truck, and three 8V-92TA's stationary engines, a 16V-92TA gen set, a 4-71 in a rail tamper, and a 6-71 pump. Even the smell of the exhaust is different.....sweeter somehow.

I'm pretty sure they can't be sold for new applications anymore. Emission regulations.

71 series Detroit's have been popular in larger pleasure boats and work boats for years.

I suspect the marine industry will keep rebuilding them and supplying parts for years.

Rick

My industry is pretty well finished with the 2 strokes. It is getting to be a rare site to see one anymore.
They are out there but it seems as they fail, a series 60 will get rolled into its place.

Many reasons for that.
Fuel economy being the big one.

When you can pay off the cost of the engine and the mods to install it in less than 2 years in fuel savings alone, you really have to look at doing it.

I was also finding that DECENT parts were becoming a problem.
Lots of our old logging machines are from the 80's.
They have had a long hard life. Those engines have been rebuilt more than once and now the blocks are pretty much done.
A good core block to rebuild can be really hard to find.

So the answer has been to swap over to something else.

I think we have 2 12V71's left in our division, the one big HDX tanker truck and the KW850 sand truck for the winter months. Neither truck gets much use.

We were having some electrical issues on the sander a few weeks ago, It stalled on a hill and the batts were dead.
By the time we got out there to get it running again, it was cooled down pretty good (-10C out there, really cold for the coast)
That ROAR when it sprang to life takes me back to when I was a wet behind the ears apprentice and everything we had was detroit powered.

There is no sound like it.

When I worked in the offshore oil industry 17 years ago, Detroits were the most common diesel engine around. In many of those applications they didn't get more than 1000 hours on them in their lifetimes. The original investment was low and parts were very easy to find. 671 and 471 were the most common. A lot of cranes had 353 and 453 engines. The 53 series is the source of some confusion as they run 2600-2800 RPM, which back then was faster than any other diesels used in the industry. That meant different hydraulic pumps and different flow rates.
I noticed back then that Detroit had it's heels dug into the marine industry even more so than the oilfield. Almost every supply boat and crew boat was Detroit powered. I wonder if this is still true. Personally I never was a Detroit fan, but with all the changes that have taken place in the last 20 years, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a piece of equipment because it's Detroit powered. I think that there have been so many of them produced worldwide that getting parts is not going to be much of a problem in the future.

4-53 blocks are getting a little scarce around here. Nearly all other parts for 53 and 71 series are still in stock in Duluth.

Regarding the fuel consumption, I was never sure if that was a real issue or just trucker stories. I am sure some of you had fleets with numbers to compare. Care to share any?

As for me, in fire trucks, we had one with a DDEC 6v92 and another newer with an ISC Cummins. Fire trucks are not a great comparison because they don't travel much and run stationary a lot but IIRC it was like 4 MPG on the Detroit and 10 MPG on the Cummins. Although the Cummins had a bit less power, obviously.

A farmer gave me a 3-53 pump engine the other day, complete and running. I was going to keep it but I put it on "consignment" at R&L Diesel in Stockton. I helped out at R&L Diesel for a couple weeks tearing down some old detroits, really cool engines, truly an end to an era. They used to employ 30+ people working on Detroit powered trucks and equipment...now they have 1 mechanic left assembling engines for what customers are left, seemed like mostly farmers in the central valley and than some other outfits nationwide who had unique equipment powered by 2-strokes. I know parts kits are still readily available, like through Interstate Mcbee and ESCO.

I have always been attracted to to 71 series engines because of there resemblance to EMD 567 Locomotive engines. The crankcase covers are very similar looking, its like they came from the same era, after all they were both GM Diesels.

Birken Vogt said:

Regarding the fuel consumption, I was never sure if that was a real issue or just trucker stories. I am sure some of you had fleets with numbers to compare. Care to share any?

As for me, in fire trucks, we had one with a DDEC 6v92 and another newer with an ISC Cummins. Fire trucks are not a great comparison because they don't travel much and run stationary a lot but IIRC it was like 4 MPG on the Detroit and 10 MPG on the Cummins. Although the Cummins had a bit less power, obviously.

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The nearby local VFD got in a new International with all the computers....thing seems to be down more than up.

As far as detroits go, you just kick em in the ass and they run. Sure they are loud, use more fuel, and slobber oil,
but when a fire department need to go, they need to go NOW !
I'm sure if your house/shop was on fire, you'd want your local VFD to have a truck that can show up fast.

I remember reading a spec. once for a Detroit powered backup genset. It stated 5 seconds from start
to full load. I would assume that meant having the coolant heated externally though.

I see the detroits around here on Amish sawmills. And I have said that "A 14 year old Amish kid with a crescent wrench
can keep one running".

I have an older diesel engine textbook, and they showed the Detroit (new at that time) as
from a company called "Winton" and GM purchased the design from them.
I took a 4-71 head into Cleveland to get welded, and the shop there had some old, large
heads (individual cylinders) and the owner said they were "Cleveland" diesels, used on the tugboats
around town, I can't recall if they were the predecessor to the Winton/Detroit or just very similar.


Oil consumption, I am told because the oil rings scrape down the cylinders, and drive the oil out the
ports into the windbox area, then get's blown into the cylinder to get burned.
I talked with an older over the road trucker, he said it was common in the run across the country
(3000 miles) to use a 5 gallon bucket of oil.

As far as I'm concerned, the fire departments should be allowed a waiver to use detroits even though they don't
meet current emission standards, based on the very little usage and the emergency nature of their work.

A good friend of mine worked for Emerson Diesel when they were the authorized Detroit Dealer here in the Northwest. He had many great stories.
He was working the generator shacks on the Alaskan pipeline taking care of Detroit powered generators. He was in a generator shack setting the
valves and injectors on a V-16 and had just finished when that engine came alive on demand. Scared the crap out of him, he realized he forgot to
lock it out of service.

Two great things about Saltwater Chevy's. It's the fastest engine to go full throttle cold without stumbling, great for stationary use. And as long as the
engine is in good condition, good starting system and good fuel it will fire faster than any other diesel engine in sub-zero temps.

RZucker do you remember George Rominger trucking in Ellensburg? No joke folks-when George bought a new truck or had an engine rebuilt the
oil drain plugs were only removed when engine work was being done. The oil was never drained-just added to and oil filters changed every
12,000 miles. All George ever owned were two strokes. I tore a 8V92 down that lost a cam at 840,000 miles, it's first major problem. It was
the filthiest engine I ever worked on, took weeks to get my hands clean.

Truck Shop

When I turned wrenches on them for the crane company in town that's how they "serviced" their motors. Spin on a fresh filter and top it off. What I never understood though was they used high dollar DA oil and we pulled samples.....that always baffled me. The foreman blew about five sheets of tin off the shop roof when the lock ring let go on a Dayton rim. Thankfully only a 10.00-20 and not one of the big crane tires. We had one of the big ones in the cage when the sidewall blew out. Ripped the cage off the wall, blew threw the liner panel of the wall and threw the mechanic Larry who weighed a good 300 across the shop like a rag doll. If I'm not mistaken that happened on 9/11. Like the actual day when the $hit hit the fan. Funny the crap you remember. I'm still torn on the ole winch truck. Need it like a hole in the head. There's just something about that old stuff.....

Junkyard

That's funny about the filthy engine oil, truck shop. I've noticed too that the oil from a detroit is different after being used, somehow darker and sticks down in the cracks of your hands. I've never heard of the not changing oil. Wouldn't fuel dilution be a problem? I can usually tell when my 6-71 is getting close to needing changed, because it will start to use a little oil. Early on, after a oil change, it burns very little.

I guess I also don't find them being terribly great cold weather starters. My 6-71 I usually crank it a little, leave it set and cook a bit, then crank it over again and it goes. Block heater makes it go easy. My 6v92 really likes to be plugged in if its much below 20 deg. f . I know it has quite a few more hours on the reman than my 6-71 has. My old cat 3208's had their troubles, but cold starting wasn't one of them, they seemed to barely crank and they were running.

Willie 59 and a few other on here really preach the straight 40 weight oil and low ash formula (I use delo 100). It's what I've always used since reading up on them, and have had good luck. It can be hard to purchase (I order mine).

wornout wrench- have you personally done a series 60 in a repower? My 6-71 has been in the schedule to be replaced with a big cam cummins for about 5 years now, but I've thought about using a 60 series. I'm not a big electronics fan, but its the way of the future, and the fuel economy with the hp they have is pretty amazing. I bobtailed a 98 westernstar 500hp detroit about 400 miles this year, and averaged right at 11 mpg. My 6v92 likes its fuel, and I know the 444 big cam on my shop floor (my original repower plan) will probably not be a fuel pincher either. I've found a complete running truck for not too much $ and thought about pulling it, electronics and all, and putting it in the crane.

Truck Shop said:

A good friend of mine worked for Emerson Diesel when they were the authorized Detroit Dealer here in the Northwest. He had many great stories.
He was working the generator shacks on the Alaskan pipeline taking care of Detroit powered generators. He was in a generator shack setting the
valves and injectors on a V-16 and had just finished when that engine came alive on demand. Scared the crap out of him, he realized he forgot to
lock it out of service.

Two great things about Saltwater Chevy's. It's the fastest engine to go full throttle cold without stumbling, great for stationary use. And as long as the
engine is in good condition, good starting system and good fuel it will fire faster than any other diesel engine in sub-zero temps.

RZucker do you remember George Rominger trucking in Ellensburg? No joke folks-when George bought a new truck or had an engine rebuilt the
oil drain plugs were only removed when engine work was being done. The oil was never drained-just added to and oil filters changed every
12,000 miles. All George ever owned were two strokes. I tore a 8V92 down that lost a cam at 840,000 miles, it's first major problem. It was
the filthiest engine I ever worked on, took weeks to get my hands clean.

Truck Shop

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Boy, do I remember those trucks. Always pretty on the outside, dual chrome everything and the quad Grover horns. Just the other day I saw one of his old cabovers out in a cornfield loading corn from a combine. Sadly those tall, graceful stacks were bobbed off about a foot above the cab.
I have heard the filter only story elsewhere too, I believe Consolidated Freightways did the same with their Detroits.

Because it fires every time the piston comes up it has a better chance at starting cold, at least that's what I have found. And oil is also food for a
saltwater chevy. So by the time it's run 15,000 miles it's already had half an oil change. And yah straight 40.

Truck Shop

RZucker said:

Boy, do I remember those trucks. Always pretty on the outside, dual chrome everything and the quad Grover horns. Just the other day I saw one of his old cabovers out in a cornfield loading corn from a combine. Sadly those tall, graceful stacks were bobbed off about a foot above the cab.
I have heard the filter only story elsewhere too, I believe Consolidated Freightways did the same with their Detroits.

Click to expand...

George had the only KW-K100 with a 86" cab and it was a five window cab like an old chevy pickup. Had a 8v-71 and 5x4 1968 I believe.

Truck Shop said:

Because it fires every time the piston comes up it has a better chance at starting cold, at least that's what I have found. And oil is also food for a
saltwater chevy. So by the time it's run 15,000 miles it's already had half an oil change. And yah straight 40.

Truck Shop

Click to expand...

A well tuned 71N should be an easy starter in the cold. What I used to do was pull the stop knob out, crank it about 3 times waiting 20-30 seconds between cranks to let the pistons heat up, then start cranking and push the knob in slow. If the temps were really low it got a shot of nose candy and usually off it would go. Turbo engines could be a bit cantankerous in the cold.

An old W.W. Williams mechanic told me if you bar them over use a ratchet because they come to life so easily and I believe it.

But does anybody care to comment on relative fuel usage? They always had a reputation as fuel drinkers but I kind of wonder if it was deserved.

Birken Vogt said:

An old W.W. Williams mechanic told me if you bar them over use a ratchet because they come to life so easily and I believe it.

But does anybody care to comment on relative fuel usage? They always had a reputation as fuel drinkers but I kind of wonder if it was deserved.

Click to expand...

I knew a guy that lit off a hot engine with a ratchet. I always clamped the shutdown cable in the off position before I barred a cold one over.
As far as fuel usage... Being a 2 stroke there is probably some loss off efficiency there, but I recall 8V92's running 5+ mpg loaded full time at 80K gross.

As far as fuel usage, I don't really track mileage exactly with the cranes, lots of short runs and idle time, with some pulling hard on trips (always loaded), but I do keep track how much fuel goes through each crane after every job so I've got a pretty good idea.

The 6-71 natural in my tms 300 (80,000lbs) has a 100 gal tank. If you are just on a jobsite, not traveling (drive there, crane stays for the week, then drive crane home), you can make all week (your a little worried on friday, but it will last all week). You've got to have some traveling in on a big day to burn over 20-30 gallons. My 6v92 in my 70 ton crane (93,000lbs) however has a 80 gallon tank. One day isn't a issue. If you drive quite a ways to a job (+40 miles),and run all day, the next day is a little worrysome. It's not hard to burn 50 gallons in a day with it. I don't know what size injectors are in it. Factory rating for the crane says 350hp for the 6v92 vs 230hp for the 6-71.

Compared to other crane's I've run that are similar size and hp ratings I would say the 6-71 is easy on fuel. It uses similar to even less fuel than my 8.3 cummins (250hp) in my tms 250's that weigh 25,000lbs less.

I have a 40 ton grove rough terrain that weighs 66,000lbs, if your roading around on a jobsite much, and really working it, its 6bt will use just as much fuel as my 8.3 cummins, because the driving it around works it too hard. That one has suprised me, I thought the 6bt wouldn't use too much fuel, but I think the 6-71 is less than it also, when doing comparable work in a day.

The 6v92 is on the thirsty side, but not horrible. I ran a similar size crane in Iowa, a mid 90's 70 ton grove with 400hp m11. I would say the fuel usage was real similar.

The worst fuel usage crane I've been on recently was a mid 2000's link belt 90 ton truck crane, I ran for a couple weeks. It had a big c-15 cat with the regen burner/ particulate trap in it. 100 gal tank was good for one day, but by noon the next day- you had to have fuel. I was burning 60-70 gallons on a jobsite setting precast (so just hyd pumps, no traveling). Between the horrible fuel usage and the regen difficulties, I wouldn't own that crane. During regen cycles , you weren't able to run throttle with the pumps in, or it would stop regen cycle. Skip the regen 3 times and it shut you off. No way to manually regen without a laptop. Would usually signal for a regen about 10 am, when you're just getting going. Nothing like shutting down for 30+ minutes for it to regen with 6-7 semi's setting there and 10 guys waiting to set precast. Sometimes during regen, it would shut itself off because the temps in the engine compartment would get too high, not enough airflow in the closed up engine compartment. I was not impressed.

No experience with a 8-71 or 8v92, or any of the bigger marine stuff. I think a 2 stroke design is more efficient , they just cant meet emissions standards.

Here I go on a rabbit trail on my own thread but I found that on a Cummins 8.3 you could adjust the idle speed from 600-800. I always liked it at 600 because it made maneuvering easier. However the PTO pump would do almost full capacity at 800 so if it was in the middle of a regen cycle and I needed to pump I would bump the idle up to 800 and let it pump and regen at the same time.

I don't know if this could work on the C-15 but it worked pretty good for me.

As I recall the N engines were advanced cam timing which I was told made them good starters. I worked on some boats that had the old Gray Marines with two valve heads and standard cam timing and they needed cocaine at 40 degrees F. I've heard much the same thing with the turbo engines as I was told those were one tooth retarded cam timing.

The buzzers in the logging trucks didn't go too long. Most everyone turned to Cummins in the day when the 350s came out and when the Big Cams hit the woods the Jimmys just kind of disappeared. Then the Cat 3406 hit the woods and the Jimmys only showed up with rookie drivers that were being punished for doing something dumb. The screamers did run real fast going up the grades empty. It was a good thing they were going down hill out of the mountains most of the time with a load. They were real sensitive to lugging.