Another point about Australia is that unlike here in North America Komatsu doesn't have dealers. I'm pretty sure that Komatsu Australia is owned by Komatsu itself. I think this changed about 10 years ago so prior to that would likely be different level of support.
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Lets talk Komatsu.
- Thread starter Eric
- Start date
Another point about Australia is that unlike here in North America Komatsu doesn't have dealers. I'm pretty sure that Komatsu Australia is owned by Komatsu itself. I think this changed about 10 years ago so prior to that would likely be different level of support.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Seat time and dealerships
Hi, Billy X.
Welcome to the forum.
I disagree that you need big mobs of seat time in a machine to 'suss' out whether you like it or not and I suspect that you have not READ AND UNDERSTOOD my previous posts. If this is the case, may I suggest that you go back and do so.
Nowhere have I ever said that I didn't like running the later model
'Kummagutsa' machines that I have come across. There were some little things that I thought could have been improved. F'rinstance, on the GD825 grader, the control levers were slightly larger than on Cat graders and slightly further apart as well. This made them less user-friendly and intuitive but I learned to live with it. All round, I LIKED the machine 'cos it handled well, pushed like a 'sonuva' and turned sharper than the older Cat 14G that we had on the same site.
I also preferred the 'Kummagutsa' arrangement of having the operator sat on the rear section of the grader and the front breaking away when articulating the frame. It makes a LOT more sense to me than having to follow a pointer which may or may not work 'cos you can feel where your back end is in relation to the front.
I also faintly suspect that my first contact with 'Kummagutsa' machines may have been before you were born, or at least before you ever got your posterior into a machine. How does 1967 sound? I can assure you that they were a little more 'primitive' in those days, but so were the Cat machines of the era. I am as yet unconvinced that all the whizz-bang electronic gadgetry on today's machines is a REAL improvement. Fault-finding can be a LOT harder, there seem to be a lot more issues with tiny but rather expensive parts keeping machines out of service and you now have to be a computer wizard just to open the fuel tank. Well, not quite but how long before that is the case?
There is also the issue, raised elsewhere on this forum, of operators getting adequate exercise in the course of a day's work, which you surely did get when you were running a Cat D8 2U with a cable blade for 10 hours a day.
In the last 5 years, I have run a PC140 excavator which I liked, even though I don't believe that excavators have much place in levelling house sites which is what I was doing with it. I have also had about 3 months running a WA600 loader with around 30,000 frame hours on it and I liked that too, in spite of it being a little tired and slow. I have also had my backside in an HD465 dump truck which was under 12 months old and which I found to be a 'bit of a pain' 'cos it was so comfortable that I found myself going to sleep a bit while being loaded. LOL.
Hi, Wulf.
I'm pretty sure that you are right about the 'Kummagutsa' organisation in Australia but maybe a little off with your estimate of when it changed. I seem to remember that it changed back in the late 1970's or early 1980's, around the time that the D455A dozers hit the market or maybe just before that. I just used the term 'dealer' for convenience sake.
Hi, Billy X.
Welcome to the forum.
I disagree that you need big mobs of seat time in a machine to 'suss' out whether you like it or not and I suspect that you have not READ AND UNDERSTOOD my previous posts. If this is the case, may I suggest that you go back and do so.
Nowhere have I ever said that I didn't like running the later model
'Kummagutsa' machines that I have come across. There were some little things that I thought could have been improved. F'rinstance, on the GD825 grader, the control levers were slightly larger than on Cat graders and slightly further apart as well. This made them less user-friendly and intuitive but I learned to live with it. All round, I LIKED the machine 'cos it handled well, pushed like a 'sonuva' and turned sharper than the older Cat 14G that we had on the same site.
I also preferred the 'Kummagutsa' arrangement of having the operator sat on the rear section of the grader and the front breaking away when articulating the frame. It makes a LOT more sense to me than having to follow a pointer which may or may not work 'cos you can feel where your back end is in relation to the front.
I also faintly suspect that my first contact with 'Kummagutsa' machines may have been before you were born, or at least before you ever got your posterior into a machine. How does 1967 sound? I can assure you that they were a little more 'primitive' in those days, but so were the Cat machines of the era. I am as yet unconvinced that all the whizz-bang electronic gadgetry on today's machines is a REAL improvement. Fault-finding can be a LOT harder, there seem to be a lot more issues with tiny but rather expensive parts keeping machines out of service and you now have to be a computer wizard just to open the fuel tank. Well, not quite but how long before that is the case?
There is also the issue, raised elsewhere on this forum, of operators getting adequate exercise in the course of a day's work, which you surely did get when you were running a Cat D8 2U with a cable blade for 10 hours a day.
In the last 5 years, I have run a PC140 excavator which I liked, even though I don't believe that excavators have much place in levelling house sites which is what I was doing with it. I have also had about 3 months running a WA600 loader with around 30,000 frame hours on it and I liked that too, in spite of it being a little tired and slow. I have also had my backside in an HD465 dump truck which was under 12 months old and which I found to be a 'bit of a pain' 'cos it was so comfortable that I found myself going to sleep a bit while being loaded. LOL.
Hi, Wulf.
I'm pretty sure that you are right about the 'Kummagutsa' organisation in Australia but maybe a little off with your estimate of when it changed. I seem to remember that it changed back in the late 1970's or early 1980's, around the time that the D455A dozers hit the market or maybe just before that. I just used the term 'dealer' for convenience sake.
Tony
Well-Known Member
OK, Deas, but...
Deas,
I've read many of your well informed posts over the years, and believe me, I very much respect your opinion.
However, what's with the "Kummagutsa" reference all the time? It seems like you have a problem even saying the word "Komatsu". What exactly does "Kummagutsa" mean, and why do you use that word over and over? By using that word in nearly every one of your posts where Komatsu is mentioned, it sems that you intend to demean the product at every opportunity.
If I were to constantly refer to Caterpillar as "Crawlapillar" ( a seemingly innocuous word, right?), I'm certain that people on the board would find fault with it and question it, even if, as I know to be true, Caterpillar is a fine product.
Given your very high regard and well deserved level of respect on this forum:notworthy, maybe I'm just holding you to a higher level of "do the right thing" than I would someone else. If "Joe Schmo" says that "Acme" is a bad product, people don't give it much thought. If your Grand Daddy says "Acme" is a bad product, you tend to believe him even if he's wrong. See what I'm saying?
Of course, I mean no disrespect, Deas. I hope you don't take any of this offensively. I'm only asking why the "Kummagutsa" reference? It's certainly not easier to type than "K-o-m-a-t-s-u", right?
Have a good one,
Tony
Deas,
I've read many of your well informed posts over the years, and believe me, I very much respect your opinion.
However, what's with the "Kummagutsa" reference all the time? It seems like you have a problem even saying the word "Komatsu". What exactly does "Kummagutsa" mean, and why do you use that word over and over? By using that word in nearly every one of your posts where Komatsu is mentioned, it sems that you intend to demean the product at every opportunity.
If I were to constantly refer to Caterpillar as "Crawlapillar" ( a seemingly innocuous word, right?), I'm certain that people on the board would find fault with it and question it, even if, as I know to be true, Caterpillar is a fine product.
Given your very high regard and well deserved level of respect on this forum:notworthy, maybe I'm just holding you to a higher level of "do the right thing" than I would someone else. If "Joe Schmo" says that "Acme" is a bad product, people don't give it much thought. If your Grand Daddy says "Acme" is a bad product, you tend to believe him even if he's wrong. See what I'm saying?
Of course, I mean no disrespect, Deas. I hope you don't take any of this offensively. I'm only asking why the "Kummagutsa" reference? It's certainly not easier to type than "K-o-m-a-t-s-u", right?
Have a good one,
Tony
Deas, I allways thought that the "Kummagutsa" term showed a little biased, even if it's not meant, it kind of comes over that way.
On another note, I would take offence at the Grandad description, I'm only 3 years behind you myself!!!
On another note, I would take offence at the Grandad description, I'm only 3 years behind you myself!!!
Deas Plant
Senior Member
"Kummagutsa"????????????????
Hi, Tony.
You are a comparative newcomer to this forum and so would not be likely to have seen my previous explanation of my use of this pseudonym. It is a slang name that I picked up way back when the company's products weren't quite the quality they are today. I have stated my views on the products pretty clearly in the past and again in this thread. If people can't or won't get past my use of a slang name and take my statements as being my honest opinions about those products, so be it. I have no plans for change to accomodate people who wish to read while wearing 'blinders'.
You can call Caterpillar whatever you like. It is highly unlikely that you will change MY opinion of their products, their service and parts back-up or their marketing machine.
Quote from your first post in this thread:
"The truth of it is this:
CAT is a marketing company
KOMATSU is an engineering company"
Unquote.
For mine, both of the above statements are true - - - as far as they go. If in saying this, you are inferring that Caterpillar is not an engineering company and 'Kummagutsa' is not a marketing company, then I'd suggest that you are not stating the whole story. Caterpillar has consistently over-engineered its products in relation to their power for almost their entire existence. That has been a point that many competitors have used against them over the years. Those competitors have built machines with higher power-to-weight ratios and claimed higher efficiency. Most of them have not been able to demonstrate superior reliability and equivalent service life. 'Kummagutsa' has probably come closer than most to achieving this.
Caterpillar has also been fairly industrious in its testing programs for a very long time now - not saying that 'Kummagutsa' isn't. Not only do Cat have their own proving grounds but they also send new products and models out to selected users for on-the-job testing in ways that Cat testers and engineers would have difficulty duplicating. I suspect that your favourite manufacturer does likewise.
Quote:
"If "Joe Schmo" says that "Acme" is a bad product, people don't give it much thought. If your Grand Daddy says "Acme" is a bad product, you tend to believe him even if he's wrong. See what I'm saying?"
Unquote.
I beg to differ, at least in my own case. Regardless of who said or posted what, I have this rather odd habit of making up my own mind about most things. I suspect that there might be a few other people on this forum who take a similar approach to life and what they see and hear.
Hoping this answers some of your concerns.
Hi, Tony.
You are a comparative newcomer to this forum and so would not be likely to have seen my previous explanation of my use of this pseudonym. It is a slang name that I picked up way back when the company's products weren't quite the quality they are today. I have stated my views on the products pretty clearly in the past and again in this thread. If people can't or won't get past my use of a slang name and take my statements as being my honest opinions about those products, so be it. I have no plans for change to accomodate people who wish to read while wearing 'blinders'.
You can call Caterpillar whatever you like. It is highly unlikely that you will change MY opinion of their products, their service and parts back-up or their marketing machine.
Quote from your first post in this thread:
"The truth of it is this:
CAT is a marketing company
KOMATSU is an engineering company"
Unquote.
For mine, both of the above statements are true - - - as far as they go. If in saying this, you are inferring that Caterpillar is not an engineering company and 'Kummagutsa' is not a marketing company, then I'd suggest that you are not stating the whole story. Caterpillar has consistently over-engineered its products in relation to their power for almost their entire existence. That has been a point that many competitors have used against them over the years. Those competitors have built machines with higher power-to-weight ratios and claimed higher efficiency. Most of them have not been able to demonstrate superior reliability and equivalent service life. 'Kummagutsa' has probably come closer than most to achieving this.
Caterpillar has also been fairly industrious in its testing programs for a very long time now - not saying that 'Kummagutsa' isn't. Not only do Cat have their own proving grounds but they also send new products and models out to selected users for on-the-job testing in ways that Cat testers and engineers would have difficulty duplicating. I suspect that your favourite manufacturer does likewise.
Quote:
"If "Joe Schmo" says that "Acme" is a bad product, people don't give it much thought. If your Grand Daddy says "Acme" is a bad product, you tend to believe him even if he's wrong. See what I'm saying?"
Unquote.
I beg to differ, at least in my own case. Regardless of who said or posted what, I have this rather odd habit of making up my own mind about most things. I suspect that there might be a few other people on this forum who take a similar approach to life and what they see and hear.
Hoping this answers some of your concerns.
digger242j
Administrator
With no reference one way or the other to any specific brand of machine, or their inherent qualities, or lack of, and only in reference to Deas' preference for a modified form of Brand K's name, I offer the following commentary:
For those who may have missed Deas' explanation when he first offerd it, it can be found here:https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=25860&postcount=26
For Deas...
The way I read the whole of Tony's comments above, he is likening you to the Grand Daddy in the example, and in so doing, is suggesting that others may be making up their minds because they're influenced by what you have to say--either what you say directly, (which as we all recognize, is exactly what you think, and is always seemingly well thought out and backed up by your first hand experience), or what you imply in deliberately bastardizing the company name. Sometimes formally expressed opinion doesn't carry the same weight that subtle implication does.
While it's tough to argue with the former, the latter might leave the casual reader with the impression that you have a bias, which the casual reader may, or may not, accept as valid, without bothering to read whether there's any well-reasoned thought on which that bias may be based.
For those who may have missed Deas' explanation when he first offerd it, it can be found here:https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=25860&postcount=26
For Deas...
The way I read the whole of Tony's comments above, he is likening you to the Grand Daddy in the example, and in so doing, is suggesting that others may be making up their minds because they're influenced by what you have to say--either what you say directly, (which as we all recognize, is exactly what you think, and is always seemingly well thought out and backed up by your first hand experience), or what you imply in deliberately bastardizing the company name. Sometimes formally expressed opinion doesn't carry the same weight that subtle implication does.
While it's tough to argue with the former, the latter might leave the casual reader with the impression that you have a bias, which the casual reader may, or may not, accept as valid, without bothering to read whether there's any well-reasoned thought on which that bias may be based.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Would you sign a big contract????????????
Hi, Digger 242j.
You make some valid points - - - as usual. I have a whole one question to ask in reply:
"Would you or anybody else sign a contract to build a new road or building worth several hundred thousand dollars without reading the fine print?"
For mine, anybody who doesn't read and understand the 'fine print' of any post here or on any other forum is only short-changing themselves. I find that the great majority of posters are about giving the best information that they can but that only works if the reader reads the posts instead of making assumptions from headlines.
Nuff said.
Hi, Digger 242j.
You make some valid points - - - as usual. I have a whole one question to ask in reply:
"Would you or anybody else sign a contract to build a new road or building worth several hundred thousand dollars without reading the fine print?"
For mine, anybody who doesn't read and understand the 'fine print' of any post here or on any other forum is only short-changing themselves. I find that the great majority of posters are about giving the best information that they can but that only works if the reader reads the posts instead of making assumptions from headlines.
Nuff said.
I have looked at your earlier posts Deas,and found them very much the same as the others I have come across. The only thing I wanted out of the last post of mine was for you to say something positive about Komatsu. Needless to say I have I have a smile on my face. They are not so bad afterall.
P.s Thanks for the welcome and to you too countryboy.
P.s Thanks for the welcome and to you too countryboy.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Something Good About 'Kummagutsa'.
Hi, Billy X.
If you look back through my previous posts regarding 'Kummagutsa' and its products, I believe you will find that I have consistently said that I mostly enjoyed operating these products. The only things I have consistently said I thought could do with a little(?) attention have been the level of service and spare parts support and the apparently shorter service life to first rebuilds and between subsequent rebuilds.
Most of the ones I have operated have consistently out-produced their competition - with one or two exceptions - but they are also almost always slightly heavier and more powerful than the competition too, especially among the dozers and graders that I have run.
Happy now? LOL.
Hi, Billy X.
If you look back through my previous posts regarding 'Kummagutsa' and its products, I believe you will find that I have consistently said that I mostly enjoyed operating these products. The only things I have consistently said I thought could do with a little(?) attention have been the level of service and spare parts support and the apparently shorter service life to first rebuilds and between subsequent rebuilds.
Most of the ones I have operated have consistently out-produced their competition - with one or two exceptions - but they are also almost always slightly heavier and more powerful than the competition too, especially among the dozers and graders that I have run.
Happy now? LOL.
Tony
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Digger
Digger,Thanks for helping in clarifying my position. You nailed it.
Deas, again, I meant no offense or "pot stirring" in my original post. Of course, we are all allowed our opinions, (and you know what they say about opinions!). And, yes, the Grand Dad comment was meant purely as a compliment.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Best regards,
Tony
Digger,Thanks for helping in clarifying my position. You nailed it.
Deas, again, I meant no offense or "pot stirring" in my original post. Of course, we are all allowed our opinions, (and you know what they say about opinions!). And, yes, the Grand Dad comment was meant purely as a compliment.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Best regards,
Tony
Last edited:
Lashlander
Senior Member
I take it your pointing out that nice Komatsu haul truck in your Avatar. I don't think you would come on here whining about people bad mouthing Komatsu and do the same thing to Cat.
Tony
Well-Known Member
Never, Lashlander, never...
The avatar is actually a picture of from when Cat was testing their version of the turntable levelling device, similar to what was found on old Drott and Case excavators.
Hey, no harm, no foul...you're probably right though...I should change it.
Regards,
Tony
The avatar is actually a picture of from when Cat was testing their version of the turntable levelling device, similar to what was found on old Drott and Case excavators.
Hey, no harm, no foul...you're probably right though...I should change it.
Regards,
Tony
Tony
Well-Known Member
Done.
Lashlander
Senior Member
You didn't need to change it on my account. I don't usually join in on the bashing certain brands on equipment type discussions. Your avatar just struck me funny. I don't think anyone would argue that Cats venture into large mining shovels was anything but a miserable failure.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
On the subject of offense.
Hi, Tony.
No offense taken. I'm pretty thick-skinned and I've been insulted by experts so most people these days are wasting their time. LOL.
On the subject of sharing experiences, I can't see a lot of sense in spending 40-odd years gathering said experiences only to take it all to the grave with me. Can you?
Hi, Tony.
No offense taken. I'm pretty thick-skinned and I've been insulted by experts so most people these days are wasting their time. LOL.
On the subject of sharing experiences, I can't see a lot of sense in spending 40-odd years gathering said experiences only to take it all to the grave with me. Can you?
Eric
Senior Member
iron kid
Well-Known Member
at what point can u bring them back? how many hours is to many?
Eric
Senior Member
We have some D-10 N's with close to 60,000 hours. They are great. We have some stuff with 24K that is junk. :beatsme
MUDSLINGERS
Member
I just revieved a new 51 but due to the weather not ran it yet anything I need to look out for?
Tony
Well-Known Member
Mudslinger,
It's what you won't have to look out for! The visibility on this machine is unbelievable, better than any comparably sized dozer. Have fun with it.
Tony