Redneck ruminations and thoughts

Yair . . .

8k bill. (laughing) Good one mate, it just shows I've got lots of time . . . no point in going to the pub it costs money and all they ever talk about is football, cows and golf.

Cheers.

Jim D said:

What about the long reach excavators with cable winch retrieval of the bucket? British machines, I think.

Click to expand...

Priestman VC range, VC 15, 20, and 25 (not sure if they made a 30), the number refers to the reach in meters. As the bucket comes in, the counterweight slides in on rails. I operated a 20 a few years back, and they're excellent machines. A lot were sold to the US in the 1980's. They were better than a long reach when working off mats, as the balance was better.

Another technique question, Scrubpuller. When your mate could see what he was doing would he work left to right (dig at one distance) and then move in one bucket length or make a trench in and then traverse and make another trench next to the one he had just made?

I noticed the guy pulling all the way in also before throwing out the clutch on the drag. On the Koehring you could set it up to lock the drag clutch in and all you had to control manually during the pull was the lift clutch. The drag clutch lever could be bumped slightly to disengage while you put pressure on the brake to hold it and then let it out as you go to let the bucket out of dumping. It appeared to me that the operator had bump the lever hard to stop the drag and then stand on the brake to hold the drag as he picked the bucket up. You can hear the squeal of the brake as he turns and lifts the bucket for the dump cycle.

One thing I used to do was use the bucket as a bulldozer a bit when starting the dig process. In dryer material it is easier to drag a bit of a pile up in front of you to force more material into the bucket on the subsequent passes. Casting was OK to do but you get faster cycle times on the closer drag. Casting also beats up the bucket and the jewelry if your machine controls are a bit rough or your operation isn't particularly smooth. The guy in the manure pit looked pretty good to me except for pulling until material goes over the top of the bucket.

Dude loading the manure is a sure enough hand

Dragging some dry up to shut the bucket.

If you hoisted out the slop would just run out.

When you hoist in you get some angle on the bucket and the slop goes in the right place.

Yait . . .

boaterri. With a modern excavator based machine I Imagine that is exactly how it would be done that is to say . . . cut a series of trenches in straight lines and then cut the rills as in slot dozing.

That old machine was not built for walking though and as much dirt as possible was won in segments of a circle from a fixed
position . . . please note I only had about eighteen months with this slightly eccentric character and other operators may have done things different.

When I say "I mean it was not built for walking" I mean it was not a simple operation like pressing a couple of pedals. I have forgotten the procedure but there were windy handles and dog clutches to engage and, unless there was a good smooth track it was just as likely to pop a drive chain.

I hear what Heavy Metal is saying which is one of the reasons its important to take as much out when desilting while the hardening mud still has some "structure". Once it turned to sloppy goop he would readjust the jewellery to give the bucket more layback and just get into it and bale.

Cheers.

You crafty old ba$tard, Scrub. Getting us "young" dirt guys thinking about draglines. I must confess though. I've thought for years it would be fun to jump into an old Bucyrus and see if I could make it dig. Thanks for starting this.

Yair . . .

Thanks for comment Shimmy1 (grinning)

Seriously though. I do think a lattice stick and hydraulic winches on a modern excavator platform would be a seriously useful tool and not just for shifting goop.

As mentioned that bloke used to take on road jobs and load out little hired in single drive Austins and Commers and Maple Leaf dump trucks and make it look simple . . . as has been mentioned up thread the skills to operate a dragline take a while to develop.

I became reasonably proficient in general digging and baling but it was a different ball game when it came to loading trucks. . . coming off dozers the biggest problem to me was the fact that unlike a PCU the load has to be transferred (on that machine) from the hand clutch to the foot brake and it seemed to take an inordinate of time to develop the knack.

Cheers.

As far as loading trucks goes, I don't see how you could beat the speed or accuracy of using a regular excavator. I have never run a dragline, or a crane for that matter, but I have lifted a lot of different things with a excavator, and, unless you move slow it seems everything just gets to swinging. To my way of thinking trying to line that bucket up over a truck bed would take too long compared to a excavator. Maybe you're thinking over loading bigger trucks like ADT's, but even that, a 65 ton machine is going to be swinging a 4 or 5 yard bucket if its dry enough, are you going to hang anything much bigger than that off a dragline and still have a small enough crane that moves around easily enough? I think a dragline would for areas like what Shimmy1 gets into, but for production truck loading... I just don't see it. And like I said at the start, I've never run one, so I could be way off base

There was a knack to loading, and my uncle spent half of his working life doing it. I'd had a few years on excavators and the first time I stood and watched him, I was amazed at how little swing there was. It's all in the timing. If you compare loading with a dragline to loading with a long reach, the dragline wins hands down due to bucket size on equivalent weight machines. Assuming suitable material, of course. Also, something like a 22RB will take a good size bucket on an 80' stick, an NCK605 will take 90-120', and you need a bloody big long-reach to match that reach with anything like a productive bucket pinned on.

Yair . . .

ih100. Well explained on your #30 post.

I read movindirt's comments last night and came over here just now to comment about the timing and controllable swing . . . you beat me to it.

There was no 'lining up' as I remember, every thing was kept tight, smooth swing, lower, dump bucket and maybe in sticky stuff a little shake and jerk.

As I have mentioned on here (going way back) I can't help but wonder how effective such a machine would be with hydraulic winches/controls, the ability to easily track and a decent bloody seat.

Cheers.

I like the idea of using hydraulic motors but see plenty of problems with it also. First item is line speed especially when throwing the bucket. A clutch machine just lets the drum spool out at any speed it wants while a motor driven drum would be limited to how much oil could get in and out of the motor. Maybe someone could figure out how to put a variable piston motor on the drum and just put it at no stroke when you wanted to free wheel the drum. The second problem comes when you want to stop the drum from turning. Since you don't have a brake like a friction machine you will have to stop the motion with hydraulic power. I ran a 666 Koehring with the closed circuit swing system. When you let the air control go to neutral the swing was free. If you used opposite direction to stop the swing you ended up blowing hydraulic hoses all the time. You were supposed to just ease off the stick to slow the turn down and that eased the pressures through the pump and valving instead of blowing the reliefs with more oil than they could handle.

The real problem with all this is cost. I could probably find two dozen used long stick machines right now in the US pretty easy. Last time I saw a line machine in the twenty to thirty ton range get sold was probably 25 years ago and it was over $100K then when you could get a used long stick from the gray market for a little more than half that.

So lets negotiate this half way. Lets put the hydraulic drive on the tracks and swing, a good seat in the cab and leave the brakes and frictions for the drums. Drive chains, shafts, drums, brakes and clutches have got to be cheaper than hydraulic motors and will last years longer.

Yair . . .

Gotcha John C. Thoughtful comments and as mentioned it is pleasing to see such interest in this thread.

Being away from equipment for so long I thought the oil control/freespool problems may have been resolved hydraulically.

I don't quite recall the details but we built several seine winches with big bore recirculating bypasses that worked pretty well. Some European trawl winches have clutch packs running in oil between the motor and the drum with another identical pack on the other side for the brake.

As you point out it all comes down to cost.

In truth I don't remember too many issues with the frictions, brakes and drums and the riveted linings were pretty easy and inexpensive to replace anyone could live with that . . . the main issue was that travel system.

Cheers.

In one of the few remaining brickyards in the east of England, about eight miles from where I live, there is a Sennebogen machine digging clay. It's about ten years old, fully hydraulic with a 120' stick. I've watched it from about a quarter mile away, and it isn't any slower than a 38 RB which would be fairly close in size. The operator was casting the bucket, as well, so it's possible. Liebherr also do a dragline option on their lattice cranes.

Yair . . .

Thanks ih100. If there are folks here who, Like me had never even heard of Sennebogan there is a nice bit of digging going on here . . . .

http://www.sennebogen.com/en/news-p...mit-25-yd3-schleppschaufel-kiesgewinnung.html

When this sort of technology is available it is difficult to see why folks would spend big dollars on putting fancy seals on excavator bucket pins and remote lubrication for winning gravel . . . perhaps maybe if it was compacted?

As John C. mentions it probably all comes down to cost . . . if you already own the excavator.

It is obvious small dragline equipment is out there but, for various reasons such as possibly initial cost and the availability of operators it has not been adopted except for special applications . . . I have seen a few road cuts where I imagine the machine shown in the clip would handy with a fleet of ADT's.

It seems folks that once again I have been talking through my hat. (grins)

Cheers.

Scrub Puller said:

Yair . . .

Thanks ih100. If there are folks here who, Like me had never even heard of Sennebogan there is a nice bit of digging going on here . . . .

http://www.sennebogen.com/en/news-p...mit-25-yd3-schleppschaufel-kiesgewinnung.html

Click to expand...

That reminds me of a gravel bed operation the company I worked for used to run in the southern part of New York State. They did it just like that with a Bucyrus Erie crane, for get the model but it had a V12 Cummins in it, believe it was either the 1710 or maybe something a bit older. They would pull the gravel out just like that guy was doing and at the "dry end" of the pile a 988 Cat would load it into trucks to go to the screening plant. They also had a "Ready Mix Concrete" operation at the site and possibly a black-top plant.

Scrub, you have me in quite a pickle now.
I've wanted a smaller dragline for many years now. I've never operated one but I am infatuated with the old machines. I've seen them come and go but they were out of my price range for a novelty toy.
I own/operate a small excavation company and do metal fab and heavy wrenching in my slow months as it's froze here 4+ months of the year. I also do equipment appraisals for a large online auction company.
Anyway.... I was at a local farmers place this morning listing some tractors for sale and we got talking construction equipment. He has built a couple large tractors from scratch and a few very interesting pieces of construction/farm equipment. He has an old dragline sitting in his yard that I inquired about. He said that he uses it a couple times a year to keep it loose but nothing else. It's for sale. I told him that I was very interested.
It's a small unit with a 5/8yd bucket but I don't know much else about it other than I want it. He just bought the bucket and bits for $1500 and it didn't sound like he wanted much more than that for it. It's been retrofitted with an engine from a combine (gas I assume) so he said it runs a bit fast but just idle it down a bit to make it controllable.

I'll be back there in a couple days and I'll get the full scoop on it. I'll try to get some pics whether it comes home with me or not.

I've been keeping up on this interesting thread and now found a neat toy that I need. It keeps a guy working I guess.

A small dragline (Unit?) rusting away not far from my house

Well Scrub Puller, This thread has brought back some memories from my early childhood and draglines. My father got a farm through what was known as the Rehab scheme for returned service men after WWII in NZ, the same settup as the soldier settlement scheme in Oz.As in most cases the land was not that good, the prime land was owned by old established families My dads farm was in the south of the South Island in a very wet climate so he considered in order to improve the land drainage was the first priority. Enter Jack Robb and his 10RB. It was the type were you pushed the levers to operate the drag and hoist ropes and the windy thing was the engage one track break or the other and powered with a Ruston engine, 3cyl hand cranked. A 44 gallon drum on the back of his F100 was a weeks fuel.
So Dad and Jack would have a look at the job, drive in a couple of steel pickets, rap some rag on the top and that was the job set out.Jack was then left to do the rest. Man that bloke could drive that machine straight and those drain bottoms were one grade from end to end and all the banks battered to the same angle. He had one hell of an eyeometer, none of the fancy stuff today socalled operators require,lasers GPS etc. Jack was the first person I ever saw who wore dentures and as a 5year old was fascinated by them and particularly when he was cutting the batters, left side bank teeth up the right side of his mouth, opposite for the other side and that was upper and lowers. Jack also loved wearing Clogs in the winter reckoned they were the warmest things a human can put on their feet.
He moved the dragline around on a side loading trailer towed by a S model Bedford. He would climb over the side and the tracks were as long as the trailer was wide os there was no nead to spin them around and it was never tided down. Things like that were normal in those days before the dogooders started stuffing the world.
Years later I had been staying at a High Country station while working on a roading job on a road over the Southern Alps and the owner asked if I could dig a new drain for him as a slip had come down off a mountain and blocked the old one and flooding there only hay paddock. So with a UH07 Hitachi and the memory of Jack the job was setout the same and the result was the same and no tilt bucket, they hadn't been invented. A year or so ago while mucking around with Google Earth i found that drain still runngnig water out of Lake Pearson.

Yair . . .

Good one fellers.

If nothing else the thread has bought some stories to light and created some interest, thanks to all.

Cheers,