more random skid steer comments

Rogue John Deere Skid Steers

My First thought was "WOW" …. Copy Cat of Bcat !!! ….. But then me is thinking ??? …. LOL …. Why Not !!! …. Bobcat was the First and Everybody Follows ….. Look at Skidoo they were the First TOO …. right up to in recent years Skidoo came up with the Rider forward position and EVERYBODY Copied and followed Suit !!!

The New JD Skids Copied a Great Idea !!! ….. "Why Not !!! " … if it works Great … Don't Fix What's Not Broke !!!…… JMHO ….

That 317G looks like a T-190

CRAFT said:

My First thought was "WOW" …. Copy Cat of Bcat !!! ….. But then me is thinking ??? …. LOL …. Why Not !!! …. Bobcat was the First and Everybody Follows ….. Look at Skidoo they were the First TOO …. right up to in recent years Skidoo came up with the Rider forward position and EVERYBODY Copied and followed Suit !!!

The New JD Skids Copied a Great Idea !!! ….. "Why Not !!! " … if it works Great … Don't Fix What's Not Broke !!!…… JMHO ….

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Yep, Bobcat was first by six months, Owatonna "Mustang" was next, to all the engineers out there, sometimes being first is better than being the best... Mustang WAS the FIRST Hydrostatic though...

Just found these videos on the new John Deere skid steers. I saw them earlier this week in person at the rental show in Atlanta. Hope to demo one soon.
http://youtu.be/n7gOzXCU3ck
http://youtu.be/bI0LpbiO6_g

Found another video.
http://youtu.be/DwoRfG3Nh5Y

Finally found one of the Deere skid steers on a dealer's lot. It was the 318G. Vertical lift Bobcat S185 copy. Hand and foot controls. The Yamar diesel started and ran great, no DEF but does have DPF with regen. Easy to see out the rear window. Side visibility is similar to the Bobcat. Low entry and exit. Great visibility of bucket edge. Downfalls. The machine was very bouncy. Of course, I was driving on blacktop. The hydraulics shuddered when I was lowering the arms and driving around. This is the same problem that Kubota told me that they had to correct before they released their wheel skid steer. The main reason that I was looking at these machines was to add to the rental fleet. John Deere gave me very aggressive pricing at the American Rental Assoc. Show in Atlanta earlier this week. The dealer didn't act like he was willing to honor the pricing. Most likely I will be buying another Bobcat skid steer. Now I just have to figure out if I should pay extra for SJC (joystick controls).

so everyone on the forums may be impressed to learn that after 2500 hours we traded the jcb 205 on a new bobcat s595. im pretty much a bobcat guy now, bobcat makes a hell of a machine. although it may be interesting to see how the thing runs in the cold i hear. it turns out there is more to a skid steer than one might think. the jcb was actually a nice ride as long as you had plenty of room to maneuver, which is...never. it quickly would lose its composure in tight spaces. i figure this was from a combination of joystick programing, wheelbase, track width, weight distribution, (flat footedness), and the single arm. it had an uncanny ability to bounce when turning which really gets old. this was really my only problem with the machine. the new bobcat has joysticks, so i will know much more about weather we made the right move in a few weeks.

also i will never own a skid steer again that does not have the hydraulic cushioning on the bucket tilt cylinder. as far as i know this has been a bobcat exclusive for 20 years or so. it really makes the whole machine operate much more smoothly. i do not know if cat has this rigged electrically but they might now. this is a huge deal that nobody seems to care about.

dave esterns said:

so disappointingly, i was just at the case dealer and realized case does not offer the old school sweet servo controls like i thought they did. of corse the salesman said they were servo controls just like the old ones, but I'm afraid they are exactly what the bobcat has... and that is definitely not what the old cases had. again, i do not understand how case people are not in an uproar because their sweet control system is gone. whatever they have now is clearly the same as what the classic 1845 had. i put 30 hours on the sv185 "servo" machine and it was not good. i drove around my buddies 200 "servo" machine and it felt exactly like the 185. maybe I'm missing something somewhere but i don't think so.

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I have confirmed that Case does indeed offer the same M46 sunstrand with the same servo controls. It is a base model economy package, maybe your dealer didn't WANT to sell you one.

why would they offer their best control system in an economy machine?

so after a few hours in the bobcat i have things to say. i am happy with the mechanical part of the machine, i was surprised the boom has mechanical "snubbing" on it. the software on the joysticks seems to be about as good as they might be able to get. what i am not happy about is joystick placement and joystick effort. it takes way too much effort to run the joysticks. the jcb joysticks were effortless, and that is the way it should be. i don't know what is worse running the high effort joystick or running mechanical controls. also, the joystick placement is bogus. sure they slide forward and backward; but all that really does is stop the lap bar from interfering with them. the relationship between my hand, the joystick, the base of the joystick, my elbow, and forearm is all off. jcb had the ergonomics figured out, that machine fit me like a glove. it was setup just like an excavator. in the bobcat i pretty much have to run the joystick without an armrest, and that is not the way it should be. i looked to see if there was anyway to adjust the joysticks further and everything pretty much seems to be all welded solid. if i slide the seat forward quite a bit things get only a little better, but i am not willing to give up the legroom. maybe i shoulda looked at a cat, but they do not have the v shaped belly pan, and they are harder to get in and out of.

Did you get any demos on any of the machines you were looking at? It seems like that would have brought up any issue with heavy/poorly placed controls, no?

it seems that all the local dealers are reluctant to give real demos. sure i drive them around the dealership lot but you really don't know anything about the machine until you get it in the barn on the farm. i have noticed many things you don't really notice in a small demo on the dealer lot. and at that time shortcomings are often easy to overlook. not to mention local dealers do not have joystick machines on the lot. i did notice the joysticks worked hard before purchasing, but i thought it would be something easily gotten used to. but after running for a few hours i quickly realized they work much harder than i thought. another thing i am annoyed by is the tendency for the seat and the controls to rock side to side constantly while driving. i thought i would like the joysticks mounted to the seat because it seems like a good idea, but i am unimpressed with the setup so far. if a guy could put the jcb cab on a bobcat they would have something.

Go demo a Cat, the joystick placement is nice unless you're very large. IIRC, bobcats lap bar doesn't move with the seat, which would get annoying.

There's a number of dealers that will do on farm demos around here, just not the big BC one.

at first i was going to give bobcat the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe jcb had it wrong. but that is clearly not the case. the bobcat joystick setup is unacceptable. the arm rests are way out in lala land so all they do is dig into the side of your arm while your driving. if i had a grinder and a welder i could probably get it rigged up to an acceptable level. the first thing i would do is cut the lap bar out because it simply does not work out as it is. then i would move the arm rests to where that was located, which is where they should be. then i would raise up the arm rests a little if still needed; and cut off the joysticks from the arm rests and weld them where they should be, which is almost directly in front of the arm rests. currently, the joysticks are mounted inward an excessive amount so they don't even line up with the armrest. no wonder nobody buys bobcats with joysticks! I'm sure bobcat would tell me that i am the one who is screwed up, but i am afraid not. if i was 6'3" and 350 pounds the arm rests would probably be in the right spot, but then i wouldn't be able to get the lap bar around me, nor would my legs fit in the cab because they would hit those giant plastic pieces they put in the cab corners, which was also a bad idea.

i also can't get over the excessive joystick effort, what is the purpose of that? maybe if i grabbed onto it like a man like i do my manual controls and moved them that way that is what they are thinking. but the key to a joystick is the arm rest. once your arm is planted, you feather the light joystick. i looked at a kubota and they have the convenient light feel on the joystick just like the jcb did. if i recall the cat seems to take too much effort too. so now i find myself grabbing the top of the joystick to try to get more leverage for moving it. so then my elbow digs into the hard plastic armrest.

i am fairly impressed with everything about the new bobcat, but these ergonomics are really a big problem. I'm guessing i would like the cat ergonomics, but I'm guessing i wouldn't be overly impressed with the machine so...

Why won't they let you demo the machines? I demo'd a bobcat and the Cat on the same day. Neither even really knew who i was, I never signed anything nor did they ask for ID. The Cat was brand new with less than 5 hours, the Bobcat dealer didn't have the machine i wanted to demo on the lot so they went and rented one from a rental yard and delivered it to me. How can they expect someone to by a 50K dollar peice of equipment without a good testdrive...

The Cat dealer sent me a credit app and had a machine dropped off at the shop. Bobcat guy met me at the dealership on a Sunday to test drive machines. But maybe it's a little different since they know I have a small rental store. Cat salesman didn't come out after they dropped it, he just tried to sell it over the phone. I really wanted to like the Cat 239 track loader. But in the end, I bought a Bobcat T590 with the last Kubota engine available. Bobcat track loader has hand/foot controls.

I tried to wait until John Deere had a 316 GR they could demo, but I went ahead and bought another Bobcat. Bobcat S550 (hand/foot controls) should be delivered next week. Bobcat gave me a rental/demo until that one arrives. Putting free hours on their machine instead if mine.

Still have the Cat 242d on lease. Run it around the lot a couple times a day. I really want to like the Joysticks, but think the hand/ foot controls are just fine for rental and my personal use if needed. I test drove Bobcats with joysticks and thought they were smooth and didn't notice the shortcomings, but that was a few minutes on the dealers lot.

Maybe call the Bobcat dealer and see if you can get hand/foot controls machine. They cost less so maybe you won't take a beating on trade-in. Just a thought if you hate the joysticks.

I drove a almost new T190 for quite a while and I'll second it, I don't know what Bobcat is thinking on their hand controls, WAY to stiff and way too much travel. Getting back in my Case 75xt was like getting in a Cadillac compared to that 190T.

my biggest problem with cat is historically they have always been WAY longer than a bobcat. you could almost always jump a full frame size in a bobcat for length of a cat. i see the new 232d tries to compete with the s185, but the bobcat 500s are quite a bit longer than that now. so now i am looking for a cat to compete with a s595 and they don't have one. the 242d is what would compete, but that is 5 inches longer than the 595, so i could jump a full frame size to a 650 in a bobcat and still be shorter than a 242. the 232 is also only 59 inches wide. its really a small machine. maybe cat is figuring on picking up bobcats business where an s185 is the biggest size they can go.

so i tore apart the armrests in the bobcat to see if there was anything i could do to modify the setup more to my liking, but they have everything pretty much permanent. there is no way to force the setup to adjust in a different way short of a grinder and a welder. i might zip strip some thick pillows to the arm rests to get them to be more tolerable. if i tip up the cab and put some washers in various places i might be able to get the lap bar in a more desirable position so it doesn't interfere with my joysticks so much. dam JCB had the sweetest cab there is and i wasn't even aware of it. sitting in the comfort was almost worth putting up with the shortcomings of the machine.

I will try to get some side by side pics of the Cat 242D and the Bobcat S590 we have on demo. I agree with Dave that the Cat machines are way oversized. I also hate ISO controls after running them spreading gravel. It's funny b/c I tried to get the Bobcat T590 track loader and Bobcat S550 we just bought with Joysticks. The Bobcat salesman talked me into standard hand/foot Bobcat controls. I am going to buy him a case of beer or a bootle of Jack or something.
Won't be buying another Cat anytime soon. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.