Can anyone help with a D6R problem?

dblaneyfan · Jan 25, 2016

Nige said:
Or unless the wiring to the contact side of the switch is connected to the wrong terminal - normally closed instead of normally open. That would set off the alarm without pressing the pedal as soon as the engine was fired up because the pedal position sensor would be saying one thing and the switch another. That switch has 3 terminals but only two of them are used. I know from personal experience how easy it is to connect wrong.

Quite correct Nige, I mis-remembered the switch as having only two terminals.

vegascowboy said:
Here is more info. Im sure this is getting complicated:

that there is no way to get past starting the engine. Once the engine starts up, the brake warning light and buzzer immediately sound, and keep the trans locked out.

Earlier you said that the transmission would engage but the brakes were locked down. Is that what you are trying to say here, or is the transmission locked in neutral?

vegascowboy · Jan 25, 2016

Thank you all for helping out. I will forward all this info to him and I will see what he says. This is how he makes a living for his family and I know he appreciates all your help. I will see what he says

Rick

vegascowboy · Jan 26, 2016

Anyone know where you can get a used ECM?????

Nige said:
So what I think you're saying is that when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel..?

Another question. When the panel performs the self-test when the key is first turned on, does the SERV CODE icon appear at the RH side of the panel in the location shown in Mark's post #2 above..?

The brake pedal position sensor (it's not a potentiometer BTW, it's a PWM position sensor) and the microswitch that were replaced - were genuine Cat parts used and was the Power Train ECM calibrated afterwards...?

I'll ask again for the 3rd time. Please post the list of Codes registered in the Power Train ECM, logged or active it makes no difference. We need them in order to see what has generated codes in the past even though they might not be active now. I find it more than a little frustrating when someone posts here looking for help and then won't give a straight answer to questions that are trying to get information that ought to get us to the root of the problem..........

Last question for now. Would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all..? If yes PM me with an email address and I'll gladly send you the correct one for the machine.

I passed all that onto my friend. He is working 12 days so I am not sure when he will get back to me. He appreciates every ones help.

Another question is does anybody know where he could get a used/remanned ECM for the dozer?????

kshansen · Jan 26, 2016

Nige said:
After having slept on it I have another suggestion. Beg, borrow, or steal a Cat 4C-8195 Control Service Tool (aka Click Box). There is even information here on HEF how to build your own if need be.

Here's a link to the thread with the instructions on making you own clicker:

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?30348-D6R-series-2-fault-codes/page2&highlight=D6R+series+2+fault+codes

Go to message #20, read all the ones in that section as there are more details in later posts. Not really rocket science if you take time to look over all the details given. Three of the right type of toggle switches from any electronic store or even NAPA if you have a good parts guy there. Some wire in a few different colors to make it easy to keep them straight and a simple box of some kind to mount them in, heck a little wooden box from a hobby store would work.

Nige · Jan 26, 2016

Actually I have since located an event better (clearer) document that lists all the required materials to build a Click Box right down to the last electrical connector pin & socket. The OP can PM me with an email address if he wants a copy.

The ECM will be the last thing he needs. They don't fail often and from experience the only guarantee is a new one or a Reman one from Cat because all the cowboys who allegely supply Reman ones don't seem to know Jack Sh1t. Apart from that the installation of an ECM will need a tech with a computer and Cat ET software to program the replacement. This = major $$$$$$ which according to you the dozer owner doesn't have.

vegascowboy · Jan 27, 2016

Nige said:
So what I think you're saying is that when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel..?

Another question. When the panel performs the self-test when the key is first turned on, does the SERV CODE icon appear at the RH side of the panel in the location shown in Mark's post #2 above..?

The brake pedal position sensor (it's not a potentiometer BTW, it's a PWM position sensor) and the microswitch that were replaced - were genuine Cat parts used and was the Power Train ECM calibrated afterwards...?

I'll ask again for the 3rd time. Please post the list of Codes registered in the Power Train ECM, logged or active it makes no difference. We need them in order to see what has generated codes in the past even though they might not be active now. I find it more than a little frustrating when someone posts here looking for help and then won't give a straight answer to questions that are trying to get information that ought to get us to the root of the problem..........

Last question for now. Would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all..? If yes PM me with an email address and I'll gladly send you the correct one for the machine.

Thanks. Here is Lynn's response:

((........when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel?) Yes the SERV CODE is visible but when you push the button and scroll all the codes it is not visible and no code shows SERV CODE when it is scrolling. I will have to get back to the dozer to answer most of the other questions and get back to you , but the question (was the position sensor and microswitch that were replaced genuine Cat parts?) Yes! (was the power train ECM calibrated afterwards?) No. Also the question (would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all?) No – I have one in the huge manual I have. I will get back to you with more info. Thanks a lot. Lynn

Nige · Jan 27, 2016

vegascowboy said:
((........when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel?) Yes the SERV CODE is visible but when you push the button and scroll all the codes it is not visible and no code shows SERV CODE when it is scrolling. I will have to get back to the dozer to answer most of the other questions and get back to you , but the question (was the position sensor and microswitch that were replaced genuine Cat parts?) Yes! (was the power train ECM calibrated afterwards?) No. Also the question (would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all?) No – I have one in the huge manual I have. I will get back to you with more info. Thanks a lot. Lynn[/COLOR]

OK, that answers my question. Please let Lynn know the following: -

1. If the SERV CODE icon did not to light up during the panel self-test that would mean that there was a fault in the display panel and obviously when scrolling through the Logged Codes if the SERV CODE icon was not working it would throw the Code diagnosis off completely. Now we know it is visible during the self-test then it ticks that box.

2. As Mark posted earlier some Diagnostic Codes are only active when the engine is running. This may be the case here. Instead of checking the Logged Codes with the engine off, check them with the engine running and see if anything changes. Report back your findings.

3. I am still of the opinion that clearing all the Logged Codes from the machine using a Click Box and then running the engine might generate something new that would help in the diagnosis. As I said before it may be possible to get hold of one from a local independent shop or from the dealer as a loan or even to rent for a day or so. It would be money well spent IMHO.

4. Does he have a digital multimeter that can be used to check continuity in certain wires in the machine wiring harnesses to and from the Power Train ECM..?

Diagnosis is pretty much a matter of eliminating "what it isn't" and eventually you'll come down to only one possibility which is "what it is".

Mark250 · Jan 27, 2016

3. I am still of the opinion that clearing all the Logged Codes from the machine using a Click Box and then running the engine might generate something new that would help in the diagnosis. As I said before it may be possible to get hold of one from a local independent shop or from the dealer as a loan or even to rent for a day or so. It would be money well spent IMHO. [/QUOTE said:
to clear the codes all you need is two jumper wires as per below
the service connector is under the dash

Mark

vegascowboy · Jan 27, 2016

forward to Lynn. He really appreciates the help. The weather has been cold and terrible in Tx. He said he will be working on it today or tomorrow. Thanks

Nige · Jan 27, 2016

A good point that Mark makes. You can erase Diagnostic Codes even more simply than a Click Box just using a few inches of auto cable.

NOTE: The ground connector on this particular D6R is slightly different to what's shown in Mark's diagram. The illustration below is taken from the Electrical Schematic which Lynn should already have in his Service Manual if I understand correctly what you posted above. Connect the length of wire to Terminal #4 (201 Black). To scroll through the Codes it's easiest to use the switch on the dash panel in the cab. Then once a Code is on Hold connect the other end of the wire to Terminal #2 of the Service connector (291 Black) to clear the Code.

vegascowboy · Jan 28, 2016

Thanks for the info. Here is how newest reponse and it looks like this may be what you were asking for. I hope this helps. Thanks:

Oops I think I made a mistake. Today when I first turned the key on and the panel did its self-test I did not see a SERV CODE. Then I started the engine. The brake symbol was not flashing and I thought everything was going to work. I raised the blade and rippers, pushed down the park brake button and put the trans in reverse. Immediately then the brake locked and the alarm flashed and sounded. I pushed the service brake back and forth and nothing happened. SERV CODE also appeared on the panel along with the “N’ for neutral or 1f or 1r if I tried shifting. I pushed the display panel button and got the codes scrolling. As soon as they began scrolling the SERV Code disappeared and no code showed SERV CODE. The codes that showed are 030 (engine) 096FO3; 030 819F02; 030 821F04; 113 (trans) 070F02; 113 168F03; 113 168F04; 113 177F03; 113 298F02; 113 299F08; 113 299F13; 113 468F08; 113 623F02; 113 671F02. After I let it run a little while I killed the engine, turned key off then turned key back on and SERV CODE showed on the display along with the machine hours . The brake symbol flashes and the alarm flashes but no sound. I started it again and then after about 3 seconds the alarm also sounds. I will try again tomorrow. I printed off the responses of yesterday and will try to do the suggestions. Thanks again, Lynn

Nige · Jan 28, 2016

Here's what the Codes are for...... 030 isn't the engine BTW, it's the Monitor System. 113 is the Power Train Control which is more likely to be interesting in the diagnosis of this particular problem.

030 096F03 - Fuel Level Sensor, Voltage Above Normal.
030 819F02 - Monitor Display Datalink, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect.
030 821F04 - Monitor Display Power Supply, Voltage Below Normal.
113 070F02 - Parking Brake Switch, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect.
113 168F03 - System Voltage, Voltage Above Normal.
113 168F04 - System Voltage, Voltage Below Normal.
113 177F03 - Trans Oil Temp Sensor, Voltage Above Normal.
113 298F02 - Service Brake Pedal Switch, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. (As I asked before. Are you sure that the switch is connected correctly..?)
113 299F13 - Transmission Lever Position Sensor, Requires Calibration
113 468F08 - Service Brake Pedal Position Sensor, Abnormal Frequency, Pulse width, or Period. I did mention this was a PWM sensor didn't I..?
113 623F02 - Directional (Reverse) Switch, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. This is not the same as the Transmission Lever. It's a switch similar to the one on the service Brake pedal.
113 671F02 - Transmission Output Speed Sensor, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect.

All the suspects for causing the problem with your tractor are there in that list. Park Brk Switch, Service Brk Pedal Sensor & Switch, Transmission Control, & Directional/Reverse Switch.

As Mark & I both suggested, try erasing the codes as per the instructions at the end of Page 2. Once you have them all erased try powering up the machine again, fire up the engine and try to move the machine and see what happens. Observe carefully at what point the SERV CODE icon lights up. I'm sure some Codes will return despite not being Active in your list. That will point us in the right direction.

truecountry · Feb 2, 2016

Nige said:
The 2 solenoid valves on the manifold for the Park/Secondary brake dump manifold are identical, part number 133-2250. One gets its feed from the park brake switch via wire # G730 pink, the other gets its feed from the service brake pedal position switch via wire # G731 grey. The manifold assembly complete with the two solenoid valves is ref 16 in the illustration below.

View attachment 148785

Oh wow this is almost exactly the same problem I had Nige but d5m ...I would check wires as Nige said and if you don't find anything wrong ...take the 2 solenoids off and....Test them by crank engine and see if they are magnetic using a screwdriver .its pretty much a electric magnet switch on it pulls pin and up and fluild flows off its released I think that's right I may be backwards ... unscrew spools I think its 15/16 deep well (also clean top around solenoids good don't want more dirty and stuff falling in ) once you get spool valves out I think u can unscrew the ends becareful its a tiny ball bearing inside clean the pin and ball bearing remember the tiny ball bearing covers a pin size hole so put it back over hole and pin behind it ..trash could be holding ball open or it could be rusted never know till u open it up ..once you get them back together reinstall and I hope this works

Nige · Feb 3, 2016

Here is a better view of what you're looking at. The other screen shot was not very clear. Sandwiched in between the Transmission Control Valve (#3) and the backplate (#17) is a manifold with 2 solenoid valves on it. I have outlined it in red, you can see the electrical connectors in the top and bottom right corners of the rectangle. I can never remember which solenoid valve is which but you can identify them easily using the wire numbers that are connected to them, one gets its feed from the park brake switch via wire # G730 pink, the other gets its feed from the service brake pedal position switch via wire # G731 grey.

Also I've included a separate diagram showing what the manifold would look like if it was off the machine to give you a better idea. This view kind of imagines that the backplate #17 has been removed and you're looking at it from the right side of the illustration above.

Mark250 · Feb 3, 2016

hi here are some brake valve graphics

Nige · Feb 3, 2016

That looks like the images from an STMG. Fancy sharing the complete document..?

Mark250 · Feb 3, 2016

no problem Nige just tell me how
Regards
mark

vegascowboy · Feb 10, 2016

thanks for help. Here is the resent response from him. It isn't looking good.

Well a disappointing day. I installed the new parking brake switch and it didn’t help at all. Still have the brakes locked. I have checked all the contacts on the J1 and J2 ECM connectors for the different codes that scroll and everything checks out (ohms) as the book says. One thing I wonder about. When I hook everything up and turned the key on, I disconnected the connectors at the secondary brake solenoid, the parking brake solenoid, and the left and right brake solenoids, and measured the voltage at the machine connector ends, and at the secondary brake solenoid the voltage is 0 when the brake is up, then when I push the pedal down it is 24 volts; but the parking brake solenoid shows 4.5 volts when the parking brake is off and 24 volts when the parking brake is on (as it should). Also the solenoid connectors for the left and right brakes (ours is differential steering so there are no clutch solenoids) show 4.5 volts, and when I push the service brake there is no change – both of them show 4.5 volts no matter where the service brake pedal is. I wonder why these solenoids are getting 4.5 volts. The book says the left and right brake solenoids are proportional and as the current decreases the move to the left and the hydraulic pressure decreases. Also why is the parking brake getting this 4.5 volts when it is off? Also I checked the ohms of each solenoid and both the secondary and parking brake solenoid showed appx. 43 ohms. The left and right brake solenoids both showed app. 4 ohms. I can’t find in the book what any of them are supposed to show so I don’t know if it is as it should be, but both of the parking and secondary were the same and both the left and right brake were the same. So I don’t know but assume they are ok because they were the same. I called another guy who is supposed to be a top notch Cat mechanic after this and he didn’t know anything about the voltage and just suggested to do all the things I have already done. Then he said he thinks it is the computer. Maybe someone will know at least about the voltage. Thanks, Lynn

Let me know if anyone has any ideaS

thanks

Rick

Cmark · Feb 10, 2016

vegascowboy said:
thanks for help. Here is the resent response from him. It isn't looking good.

Well a disappointing day. I installed the new parking brake switch and it didn’t help at all. Still have the brakes locked. I have checked all the contacts on the J1 and J2 ECM connectors for the different codes that scroll and everything checks out (ohms) as the book says. One thing I wonder about. When I hook everything up and turned the key on, I disconnected the connectors at the secondary brake solenoid, the parking brake solenoid, and the left and right brake solenoids, and measured the voltage at the machine connector ends, and at the secondary brake solenoid the voltage is 0 when the brake is up, then when I push the pedal down it is 24 volts; but the parking brake solenoid shows 4.5 volts when the parking brake is off and 24 volts when the parking brake is on (as it should). Also the solenoid connectors for the left and right brakes (ours is differential steering so there are no clutch solenoids) show 4.5 volts, and when I push the service brake there is no change – both of them show 4.5 volts no matter where the service brake pedal is. I wonder why these solenoids are getting 4.5 volts. The book says the left and right brake solenoids are proportional and as the current decreases the move to the left and the hydraulic pressure decreases. Also why is the parking brake getting this 4.5 volts when it is off? Also I checked the ohms of each solenoid and both the secondary and parking brake solenoid showed appx. 43 ohms. The left and right brake solenoids both showed app. 4 ohms. I can’t find in the book what any of them are supposed to show so I don’t know if it is as it should be, but both of the parking and secondary were the same and both the left and right brake were the same. So I don’t know but assume they are ok because they were the same. I called another guy who is supposed to be a top notch Cat mechanic after this and he didn’t know anything about the voltage and just suggested to do all the things I have already done. Then he said he thinks it is the computer. Maybe someone will know at least about the voltage. Thanks, Lynn

Let me know if anyone has any ideaS

thanks

Rick

4.5V? are you sure? It should be 5.5v pull up voltage. Is he using a dial type meter or digital multimeter? You need a DMM to troubleshoot electronics. Here's a cut n paste from a previous thread on the subject;

"Regarding your question about seeing +5.5V at the signal wire. What you are seeing is pull up voltage.

Electronics (as opposed to electrics) actually see things in three states, viz. high, low or floating. High and low are good and the circuit can use them. Floating is when a circuit is neither +ve nor ground, but it will still generate micro voltages and confuse the software. To fix this the ECM sends 5.5V to the signal wire through what's known as a pull up resistor. This means that when the signal wire is open circuit the ECM sees 5.5v. When the signal wire is grounded, it defeats the pull up resistor and the ECM sees 0v, never anything in between."

Nige · Feb 10, 2016

The resistances of the solenoid coils are within specification so no problem internally with them, or at least it appears so.

I don't see anywhere a response to the suggestion of clearing all the diagnostic codes using nothing more than a length of wire then firing up the machine again and seeing what new codes it generates. That would be the obvious next move for my money.

Can anyone help with a D6R problem?

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