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more random skid steer comments

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
howcome i hear nothing about the kubota wheeled skid steers? why do they not make a regular door on the cab an option. seems like they are weeding out all the people like me who do not care for the roll up door. the old john deere roll up door was not exactly a hit. the only reason i would consider a kubota is because there is a small chance they will offer me pilot controls still.

i still have major problems with electric controls and with people who claim they are anywhere close to manual controls as far as productivity. i been running them for 2500 hours now and they work fine in ideal conditions, and i say I operate in ideal conditions... pretty much never. if i was getting paid by the hour to drive a skid steer, i would love the electric controls.

how come none of the case people seem to be outraged that their sweet servo controls do not exist anymore? it seems to me the case servo controls were the way to go, even though i never operated them much.

im not impressed with the longevity of the 10 inch michelin radial skid steer tires. got 1000 hours on them and there is serious wear on the outside part of the tread. they might make it another 400 hours. i hear the 12 inch ones last longer.

we bought the bobcat s570 standard machine to supplement the jcb. bobcat makes a bad a** ride that can get stuff done fast. when we look to trade the jcb i might consider another jcb depending on what their new design looks like; but unless i feel it is irresistible (and it very well might be) we will probably get another bobcat.
 

KSSS

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
4,321
Location
Idaho
Occupation
excavation
The CASE servo were good, you still can get manual controls in the wheeled machines. I am almost certain that they are servo. I have run them and thought they felt similar to the servo machines of the XT and 400 series.

I think the 12" are superior in everyway to the 10"s. Only if you need the smaller tire to stay narrow, would that be an option.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
i was just reading the case literature, and it does seem like they are offering servo controls as an option, in addition to mechanical controls or electric controls. i feel like this is a new development because only 1 place on the internet in a rogue piece of literature did i find the word servo mentioned. that puts case on my radar, but i don't know if i would be able to stand learning yet another skid steer pattern. if I'm not happy with electric, and I'm not happy with mechanical, would i be happy with servo? but i don't know if i would be able to stand driving around in a case machine, are they planning a redesign any time soon? are the new ones quiet? I'm also concerned they are not offering these controls on the s590 competitor. are there any other manufacturers offering servo controls? assuming the sweet t bar units are still servo, what about gehls H pattern?
 
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U8u812

Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
25
Location
Massachusetts, Cape Cod area
The overall nicest controls I've used on a skid steer are the Cat hydraulic/hydraulic "pilot" controls. On the other extreme, the stick & pedal controls on my old Bobcat were pretty responsive too. Some other stuff in between that I've tried is a little squishy in my opinion.

Kind of Poed at Cat right now though,(see "another Perkins Pukes" thread), although until it died it was one of the most reliable machines I have ever owned.

I have a new Ditch Witch SK850 mini track loader getting delivered later this week. Was going to get something lighter for small yards anyway, the blown 226 motor made it so I could not wait until spring. One of its first jobs will be to pull the motor from the Cat.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
i have only put 5 hours on a pilot controlled machine. I'm guessing i might be able to live with pilot controls, but i am still confident they wouldn't be as effective as the bobcat controls, but all the timing for everything is problematic for me. of all the times to switch to sweet case servo controls this seems to be the worst.

here is my other question. why do they not put fore/aft/lateral isolators on the seat suspension in skid steers. the most perfect application i can think of for them. also, how come none of the new farm tractors come with lateral seat isolators (just fore aft). except for deere. all my tractors always had lateral isolators on the seats years ago and now the 2 new ones don't and i can't hardly stand to drive them. i am probably going to purchase lateral isolators and install them on the new tractors but i see the seat will dig a hole in the upholstery of the cab; a small price to pay i figure. my favorite is back in the 90s when they first were figuring out seat isolation they had fore aft only on 2wd tractors and lateral only on mfd, which i find to be funny.
 

U8u812

Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
25
Location
Massachusetts, Cape Cod area
Not all pilot controls are equal. The Cat ones are the same they use on larger machines.

A salesman I spoke with recently claimed their brand of machine had pilot control, but it seemed like electrical servo to me.

I like the Bobcats too, but a smashed toe, sore ankle, ice under the pedals can be a pain . Always two hands busy while driving, how are you going to drink your beer? (;
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
so disappointingly, i was just at the case dealer and realized case does not offer the old school sweet servo controls like i thought they did. of corse the salesman said they were servo controls just like the old ones, but I'm afraid they are exactly what the bobcat has... and that is definitely not what the old cases had. again, i do not understand how case people are not in an uproar because their sweet control system is gone. whatever they have now is clearly the same as what the classic 1845 had. i put 30 hours on the sv185 "servo" machine and it was not good. i drove around my buddies 200 "servo" machine and it felt exactly like the 185. maybe I'm missing something somewhere but i don't think so.
 
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Rentalstop

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
114
Location
Sunbury, OH
I have the most experience with bobcat hand/foot controls. Ran these for years. The most responsive IMHO. Currently I have a Cat 242d (electric over hydraulic). The past couple days it's been around 5 degrees outside. When I start the machine in the shop it's fine. When it's been sitting outside for a few hours, the hydraulics are horrible. Slow response and then jerky. I recently bought a Bobcat T590 and went with the hand/foot controls. I am glad that I did.
I had a demo on a JCB skid steer and was not impressed. Up until the cold weather I preferred the Cat over JCB for sure.
Bobcat SJC controls were really decent as well. They are much improved from years ago if you haven't tried them lately.

On another note regarding true pilot controls. One of my John Deere 27d mini excavators was returned on Monday after being left outside around 5 degrees. The pilot controls suck in the extreme cold also. Slow response and jerky.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
what did you not like about the jcb? what model did you try? the jcb is not terrible in the cold on startup. generally i try to do my less precise work in the first 10 minutes while the machine is warming up then its normal after that. does the cat become normal after 10 minutes? yes i have not driven a bobcat with sjc lately, but its true they have been doing eh forever now. ic case has some kinda false detent they worked into their joysticks to mimic "feel" sounds like kinda a gimmick to me.
 

mountainlake

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
136
Location
mn
Occupation
sawmill operator
I'll take the controls of my Case 75xt over any other machine I've been in. My Volvo with the pilot controls is nice and smooth also but a little sluggish when cold. Steve
 

Rentalstop

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
114
Location
Sunbury, OH
The JCB was a 175, I believe. I tried the machine in ISO and H patterns. I tried all three of the operator modes for response. It was slow to respond and jerky when it did. We run a small rental yard and I rented the machine a couple times. One was an experienced operator, he was used to running the H pattern. When he came back, he said he ran it in ISO (b/c their H pattern sucked) and had to stay a foot away from the walls while grading gravel b/c it was too jerky. He said he would not rent it again.
The Cat 242d is a friend's lease machine that we are renting out for him, testing the waters with Cat machines. Today, I parked the Cat out front again 20 degrees. After fours hours, I went out to try the controls again in the cold. It was difficult to start, no glow plug indicator. It was the same slow response when driving. I did notice the bucket and boom were not really affected. I think the driving is different in the fact that the machine is trying to feather the pumps to make a gradual turn. I would lean the lever all the way to get the response and then it jerked that direction. Straight forward or reserve was not an issue. I ran it around the building a few times and it started to warm up and the steering response improved. I believe it would take 15-20 minutes or more to get the usual steering feel. The hydraulic fluid is no doubt very cold. It should warm up with the engine warming up.
I have not driven the Bobcat SJC in the cold. I was very close to buying one with the SJC when I test drove them at the local dealer. The Bobcat T590 we just bought in December was the last one the dealer had with a Kubota diesel and enclosed cab, it had the hand/foot controls. I am really concerned about the new Doosan/Bobcat diesel engines. I have heard they are hard to start in the cold and very finicky with fuel. Couple other threads on this forum and others.
 
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mountainlake

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Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
136
Location
mn
Occupation
sawmill operator
The control on my Volvo are silky smooth at any engine speed, smoother than my brothers 277 CAT which are too bad either just a little touchy side to side.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
i know whats going on here they guy who likes the volvo has pilot, and the guy who doesn't has electric. I'm guessing the 175 had jcbs second attempt at eh programming. that attempt was laughable. not even worth having. they are on their 3rd attempt now and seem proud of it; I'm considering updating my machine but i am scared i will not like the update. and I'm sure it would not be easily reversed at this point. 1st attempt is what i have. it would be ok for a beginner running a tracked machine. but unsatisfactorily slow at maneuvering for a pro, like myself... but its true i don't think getting the H pattern perfected is too much of a priority for them.
 

mountainlake

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
136
Location
mn
Occupation
sawmill operator
When I bought my Volvo the first thing I did was drive it and check out the control, any jerkiness it would have stayed there. My Case I just got lucky as it was my first skid loader.
 

U8u812

Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
25
Location
Massachusetts, Cape Cod area
In very cold temps, my Cat takes 10 minuets or so to warm up the hydraulics. They even sent out a bulletin a few years after I bought the machine warning that steering would be sluggish until hydraulics warmed up. Cold starting the engine was never a problem, but I usually plug in the block heaters on my diesels if it gets too much below 20*F.

My old Bobcats (732, 743) hydraulics were fully responsive in the cold. But it is better for the machine to warm up the pumps before they are put to hard work.
 

durallymax

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
666
Location
Wi
True pilots are nicest IMO. If all you have us EH though, you kind of get used to it. I don't run our pilot machines much so when I do, they're actually too responsive since I'm used to the dead feeling of EH. I wouldn't trade the nice features of the EH machine though just for pilots. Some forms of electronic controls can be much nicer, like throttles. Love the electronic throttles, no more sticking pedals that won't go to full throttle or come back to idle.

The 10" Bibsteels only made it 1200ish hrs on ours, I wasn't impressed and put 12" on that machine. Those have about 1200 on them now and plenty left.
 

apetad

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
384
Location
Leander, Texas
Occupation
Compact Construction Equipment Sales
You really need to check out the pilot controls on the Mustangs. Every Cat guy that I know that has tried them likes them better.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
You really need to check out the pilot controls on the Mustangs. Every Cat guy that I know that has tried them likes them better.


are you speaking of the takeuchi mustangs or the new mustangs.

i test drove a bobcat s650 yesterday with sjc. it seemed they were better than jcb controls, but i still didn't feel they would be anywhere near as productive as manual. the not being able to get any gas in the cold would be a real inconvenience. i complained instantly at the slow speed in low range, and the salesman proceeded to show me the specs are the same on both machines, so i "clearly must be mistaken." I'm guessing the 650 would take at least double the fuel the jcb does mainly because you have to run it wide open to get anything done. i would consider a cat, but by the time i get to the local dealer it would be 1.5 hrs one way so. i just noticed cat released a s185 competitor, which seems quite a bit smaller than a s570 these days. i saw some rogue new style john deere skid steers on a truck yesterday, seems they finally got rid of the new holland boom design and installed a copy of bobcats design; which is superior anyways. i see the local dealer is trying to get 50k out of a new 65 wheeled kubota hand foot machine; i thought that was hilarious.

how many dollars an hour do you try to trade the cats for on your 2 year trade plan. the dealer said $10 bucks an hour is good. so that means it woulda cost $110k to run my s185 11k hours back in the day. i think i got it done quite a bit cheaper than that. where do you get the retread done on the bib steels.
 

movindirt

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
672
Location
under a shady tree
Usually when I start equipment when its cold out I let it sit and idle for 5 to 10 minutes so the machine can warm up, don't really have any issues with the controls then. I have yet to run a machine that had smooth controls right after being started in 15* weather. Oil is too cold yet.
 

durallymax

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
666
Location
Wi
I've ran some older Gehl/Mustang with pilots, I guess as haven't really found a true pilot machine that I don't like. EH on the other hand is a different story.

Cat did bring back the 232D to compete with the S185/S570. Cost per hour on ours has been lower than 10, that's trading between 2-3k. Obviously running to 11k your depreciation cost/hr is much lower and maintenance/hr is higher.

The G series Deere booms certainly are different looking.

I have Bauer Built do the retreads.
 
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