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JD 4045 w HPCR - wet fuel in all cylinder - will not run

03hdrk

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Aug 28, 2015
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125
Location
N TX
Birken

Thanks for the input. I have looked at the fuel in the filter and it did not seem bad or have water in it - but there are ways that it could have got a slug of water - these are trailer mounted units.

I will let you know more as I move forward on this.
 

lantraxco

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Elsewhen
In that kind of business, hearing what you're saying about the Tier 4 engines, I would think that buying Tier 3 wherever you could find them and rebuilding them when needed until they were no longer rebuildable would be the smart plan. I have read more than once that some of the equipment rental houses are refusing to buy Tier 4 and are doing this exact thing, they're keeping their Tier 3 stuff until it's no longer viable to run, rather than upgrade every few years.
 

Scrub Puller

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Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . .

I have been following this thread bemused at what you blokes have to put up with in this electronic age it seems strange that "progress" has spoiled the relative simplicity of a diesel engine.

However, being a rough old b*****d I started thinking back to basic principles and came back here about to suggest the original poster try to light it off on petrol (gasoline) fumes . . . if not there is an air/compression problem, if it does obviously it's fuel.

John hoffer beat me to it with the ether suggestion.

Cheers.
 

lantraxco

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I'm going to throw this out there and see what others have experienced... while I have never tried the gas rag trick, I would think that would work on even a very tired engine with absolutely zero diesel being injected? I have seen diesel engines in good shape that would not pop on starting fluid AT ALL, until some diesel was coming from the injectors. Case in point a Deere engine with Roosamaster pump that had seized and snapped the pump shaft off.

Thoughts?
 
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Scrub Puller

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Yair . . .

Lantraxco. Dunno mate.

An AC HD16 will rattle and knock and try to run on gasoline fumes on a frosty morning . . . new owner didn't know the knob thingy was the shut off and thought it start/stopped on the key . . . I might add the gasoline rag deal to light things off on chilly mornings was almost universal in my world, we had no access to ether.


Pretty sure the four cylinder Fergy 35's will do the same. I seem to recall an instance with some fellers trying to start one with the fuel in the "stop" position due to a broken or stuck cable.

Cheers.
 

john hofer

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Nov 24, 2014
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116
Location
alberta, canada
Currently working on a 3406c that has a no start,ran it on ether as long as i pleased ,that's how i found out i had a fuel problem, rail was stuck in stop position in fuel pump.
 

03hdrk

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Aug 28, 2015
Messages
125
Location
N TX
Glad to see others on here. I was worried that I had started working on a forum that had very few active members. No offense to the ones that worked with me this far - just " the more the merrier".
I am still waiting for the compression test adapter - hopefully it will come in tomorrow. If you look at my other post, you will see that I am in pretty deep with these JD power tech engines. The owner of the company and I are going to work on getting a JD computer. This company owns a generator dealership who has them but operates under a different name.

For the last 2 years, I have been working on the generators they started with. Most of them are retired now. I think they plan on refurbishing everything 60kW and up. Now I am going to encourage that direction. They were easy like all of you have said. I became familiar enough with the different engines that I could get through them quick. That made them think I was a good mechanic. Then control panels were no more than meters and gauges - and one relay for the oil pressure, temp and lug door switch for a safety circuit. Looking back, relatively few problems. One of my common statement to people who ask me how I am able to work on generators with little experience, is "most of the problems are related to vibration and electricity, other than that it is basic mechanical diesel engines". NOW - it is seems that it is all engine systems problems - fuel or egr related stuff. I wonder if these generators will make it to the point that connections get loose and hot, or a minor oil leak plug the radiator and cause a overheating issue...

As soon as I confirm compression, the injectors are getting tested. I would bet money that they will show "fail" on a test stand. It is my understanding that the injector companies have tight tolerances on their test stands, and an injector that was giving no known problems, will fail if it has had many gallons of fuel run through it.

If this goes as I expect, what should I do? Replace the entire fuel system with no further diagnostics , esp a computer scan?
Can the computer even show relevant information if the engine is not running?
What if the ECM is just plain bad and there is nothing wrong with the fuel system?
Incorrect timing could cause the problems I see - true.

What about confirming compression then (if good) just cleaning everything up, get the sludge out of the exhaust side, dry the cylinders best I can, put the injectors back in and try to run it. Waste of time? At least if it runs, even poorly, a scan would be more helpful. In my opinion, this would only makes sense if there was such a thing as wet stacking TO THE POINT OF NO COMBUSTION?

Thanks again
 

03hdrk

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Aug 28, 2015
Messages
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Location
N TX
Well, as mentioned above, service at the dealers (and the manufacturers) is lacking. I call to check on my compression test adapter Friday because it was supposed to be at the dealer (RDO). The parts man I am working with (no complaints at all about him), tracks it, finds out it has not even been shipped even though he had it on 2nd day (should have been an indicator to someone that it was needed), and then finds out that it is not even scheduled to be in until the 28. Thanks for wasting a week John Deere! I cancelled the order. Took an injector to a local machine shop and hopefully will have it by Wed.

Another note about the "Dealer", I ordered a part a few weeks ago that I needed ASAP. They said "tomorrow". I asked if they had one at another facility. They said it was at the warehouse. I asked if I could go get it. Yes but they had to add $50 dollars to the order and I would not be able to make it there before they close.
I am dealing with the Fort Worth location - the warehouse is somewhere in Dallas. I guess they believe it is too hard to pull a part and have the customer sign a paper in the warehouse after he has paid for a part somewhere else. I am also sure that they think it screws up their schedule to have warehouse employees deal with a will call counter. I would hate for them to have to work a little overtime at the my expense - I would not want the CUSTOMER, who relies on the machine they make a living with, to cost them a minute of overtime if am employee has to stay a little late after filling my order. If I were in the dirt business, the machine downtime cost can be very large. But they seem to think they need to operate like a mail order only store. Oh, yeah, they gave me the "pay $50" option.

Once again, I would not recommend having equipment in it with JD engines.

Another thing about RDO - about 2 months ago, I was seriously looking at leasing or buying a mid size excavator to start a land clearing business. Asked for the lease manager while I was getting parts one day. Another sale mgr went and spoke with him,(he was in a meeting) and then told me he would call me later. 3 days later I still have not had a phone call. I am in the store getting parts again, and I told the same guy that I never heard from his lease mgr. I said he would have him call me before the day is out. No call - ever. When it come to equipment - I am sure CAT will have the most up time. I call a Cat salesman that Friday, and he was willing to meet me the following Monday, gave me info on the phone, etc.

Once again, I could go on and on.
 

cutting edge

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Mar 27, 2010
Messages
575
Location
upper canuckistan
Well, as mentioned above, service at the dealers (and the manufacturers) is lacking. I call to check on my compression test adapter Friday because it was supposed to be at the dealer (RDO). The parts man I am working with (no complaints at all about him), tracks it, finds out it has not even been shipped even though he had it on 2nd day (should have been an indicator to someone that it was needed), and then finds out that it is not even scheduled to be in until the 28. Thanks for wasting a week John Deere! I cancelled the order. Took an injector to a local machine shop and hopefully will have it by Wed.

Another note about the "Dealer", I ordered a part a few weeks ago that I needed ASAP. They said "tomorrow". I asked if they had one at another facility. They said it was at the warehouse. I asked if I could go get it. Yes but they had to add $50 dollars to the order and I would not be able to make it there before they close.
I am dealing with the Fort Worth location - the warehouse is somewhere in Dallas. I guess they believe it is too hard to pull a part and have the customer sign a paper in the warehouse after he has paid for a part somewhere else. I am also sure that they think it screws up their schedule to have warehouse employees deal with a will call counter. I would hate for them to have to work a little overtime at the my expense - I would not want the CUSTOMER, who relies on the machine they make a living with, to cost them a minute of overtime if am employee has to stay a little late after filling my order. If I were in the dirt business, the machine downtime cost can be very large. But they seem to think they need to operate like a mail order only store. Oh, yeah, they gave me the "pay $50" option.

Once again, I would not recommend having equipment in it with JD engines.

Another thing about RDO - about 2 months ago, I was seriously looking at leasing or buying a mid size excavator to start a land clearing business. Asked for the lease manager while I was getting parts one day. Another sale mgr went and spoke with him,(he was in a meeting) and then told me he would call me later. 3 days later I still have not had a phone call. I am in the store getting parts again, and I told the same guy that I never heard from his lease mgr. I said he would have him call me before the day is out. No call - ever. When it come to equipment - I am sure CAT will have the most up time. I call a Cat salesman that Friday, and he was willing to meet me the following Monday, gave me info on the phone, etc.

Once again, I could go on and on.

Jesus H....

read the thread....you had a SCV fail (little valve on the front of the high pressure fuel pump, 2 allen screws hold it on, biege wire connector on it)....which cracked your rail relief valve.

replace the scv, rail relief and rail pressure sensor.....if you need part numbers let me know
 

partsandservice

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
It is not clear from your post what tier engines you are dealing with. All the tierIII and tierIV engines I have encountered had an EGR . The egr valve is probably stuck open and is sending all your intake air out of the exhaust. ( likely where the soot came from). I have run into the same thing you have with lack of experience at the dealerships. I know those experienced dealer techs are out there somewhere in the cosmos , but I have not found them yet in person , but a few of them lurk around here. These engines are not beyond common sense, they are just another engine. Also never discount having more than one problem.
 
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03hdrk

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Aug 28, 2015
Messages
125
Location
N TX
Cutting Edge, will a computer confirm the SCV being bad? or any of the components you mentioned? I don't go to Vegas for a reason.

PartsandService - There is no EGR system that I can see.
 

cutting edge

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Messages
575
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upper canuckistan
Cutting Edge, will a computer confirm the SCV being bad? or any of the components you mentioned? I don't go to Vegas for a reason.

PartsandService - There is no EGR system that I can see.

Oh ffs.....

Yes, a competent deere tech will be able to see that these components have failed.If you know what youre looking at on service advisor and can walk and chew gum at the same time.......well I cant guarantee that down south..

(fyi, im competent....the scv fails,cracks the rail relief,which has a limited lifespan once opened,and they all go to ****)

also....fyi, your egr valve is on the intake manifold with that yellow 6 pin connector.

all hpcr deeres have an egr
 

Deere Marine

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May 10, 2015
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Downeast, maine
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Owner/mechanic of a Deere, Scania, Volvo, Zf, and
Cutting edge, HPCR Deere marine engine do not have egr, thankfully one less thing I have to keep in the service trucks.
 

Tones

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Ubique
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Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
I only read as far as "Fuel Rail pressure. I have had a very similar problem with a 4045 HF275 with the Denso fuel system. remove the pressure sensor and check for contanaments like biofuel ect. If it's a Denso system replace the sensor and from then on and Fuel System Cleaner( NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH INJECTOR CLEANER) every 250 hrs.
 

Deere Marine

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Owner/mechanic of a Deere, Scania, Volvo, Zf, and
Tones first change your fuel filters, are you having any smoke out the exhaust? And what is the fault code that is displayed?
 

Tones

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My engine lost power bigtime but was still running. The fault code was "low-high rail pressure". It picked 150 fault codes in 5min running, all the same. We then changed the rail pressure sensor and the problems gone. If the rail pressure is low it may still be pumping fuel through the injectors but not enough to fire it and causing all the wetness. Bear in mind I'm not a JD tech and hate computers on machines.
PS Ihad to get a JD tech out to find what was going on. Unless you have an engine with it's own daiagnostics JD will not part with the program
 
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Tractorguy

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Dec 3, 2015
Messages
174
Location
NC
If it does have hpcr there are feed tubes that feed the injectors from the fuel lines through the head. Have the fuel lines or anything maybe taken off or removed for any reason? If the feed tubes weren't installed and injectors torqued properly I have seen feed tubes leak and the fuel would just run down the injector into the cylinder. What kind of condition were the o-rings on the lower portion of the injector?
 

delly

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Mar 7, 2012
Messages
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edam
Currently working on a 3406c that has a no start,ran it on ether as long as i pleased ,that's how i found out i had a fuel problem, rail was stuck in stop position in fuel pump.
How did u fix this? My 3406c has this problem
 
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