Similar thing happened to me. I was working on a lot next to a friend/competitor. Lunch time I walked next door to make small talk. The homeowner and contractor had a huge disagreement. 6 months later the homeowner pulls into my drive and hands me a paper. Then says I'm sorry and leaves. It was a subpoena to do deposition. I had to go or get held in contemp. Needless to say my friend /competitor has no use for me now. All I did was tell the truth. It took 3 years to settle this and it was less than 10 grand. I don't know why I am labeled the bad guy , but I was. My advice , if you have plenty of work , stay away from the situation. Had I not walked over there and said what's up, I'd never been involved. Now days when someone asks me what I think about anything , I reply that's not up to me to evaluate, make up your own mind. The only thing , if the land owner gets a judgment without your help , then offers you to do the work after its settled , I would do the work then. One other scenario , I had a non paying customer , ex customer. The POS never offered me a penny for 2 weeks dozing/ backhoe work. It was enough to justify a civil trial. It took me just shy of three years to get judgment , and I still have no money. They have garnished his check and I should see some money soon. I hated this situation , you don't know how much. But there was no way I was going to let it slide. I sent word that I did not care what it costs me in legal fees , he was going to pay. I got my legal fees , court costs , actual original bill plus 12% interest from day one. I figured it will take 6 to 8 years to get all my money.
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would you get involved?
- Thread starter Randy88
- Start date
The one thing I have working for me on this is time, right now I'm busy enough, not yet involved, not going to be anytime soon, can monitor the situation now that I'm aware of it and what's up.
Its been asked about just starting over, seeing how I know who's turned down the job thus far, just a hunch knowing those that turned it down, doubt that's an option, for anyone to screw up so badly and for problems to show up so quickly, I'm guessing that's been considered by others long before I got asked, and they figured it probably needs far more work than just to do that.
Some have asked me how anyone can hire some that are so stupid to do their work. First off some things have to be taken into account, the biggest one being, tiling is based on the person doing the work, how good they do, how well you get along with them, how reliable they are to get when you need them and that list is pretty long, the major issue I see every day is in the past, there were some top notch people doing tiling in my area, there work has stood the test of time, for decades, some has been working for over 80 years or more and still fully functional. Those people did the initial work in the area to drain the worst of the wet areas, to this day I work daily with and around what they did so many years ago, most of them have been dead for 20 plus years, but their work remains as good today as the day it was installed. Some of these guys did things with the equipment and technology they had available then that still makes me wonder, how did they do that to the degree of accuracy they did, I've dug up lines and exposed them that they did with string lines and targets, grade breaker boxes, transits and grade rods, or flat out dead reckoning, that are as accurate or even more accurate than we today can do with lasers. I've seen some springs, peat bogs and other things that are so complex, even today I'm amazed just how they figured it out, I've used their ideas plenty of times over the years and they still work. They were true pioneers in the industry, if they didn't feel it would work, they refused to do the work, I've been told his many times by landowners who've hired them over the years, some of the land has been in the same family for five generations now, maybe two or three different tile installers have done the work for on those farms through the whole timeframe, none have ever known a bad tile installation job, most of them never knew anything of poor quality installation existed, they'd never even heard of a bad job.
I guess you could say he took a gamble, that didn't pan out, and now he's got to figure out how to correct his mistake, the only thing he hadn't figured on was, nobody wants to fix or correct someone else's mistake.
Its been asked about just starting over, seeing how I know who's turned down the job thus far, just a hunch knowing those that turned it down, doubt that's an option, for anyone to screw up so badly and for problems to show up so quickly, I'm guessing that's been considered by others long before I got asked, and they figured it probably needs far more work than just to do that.
Some have asked me how anyone can hire some that are so stupid to do their work. First off some things have to be taken into account, the biggest one being, tiling is based on the person doing the work, how good they do, how well you get along with them, how reliable they are to get when you need them and that list is pretty long, the major issue I see every day is in the past, there were some top notch people doing tiling in my area, there work has stood the test of time, for decades, some has been working for over 80 years or more and still fully functional. Those people did the initial work in the area to drain the worst of the wet areas, to this day I work daily with and around what they did so many years ago, most of them have been dead for 20 plus years, but their work remains as good today as the day it was installed. Some of these guys did things with the equipment and technology they had available then that still makes me wonder, how did they do that to the degree of accuracy they did, I've dug up lines and exposed them that they did with string lines and targets, grade breaker boxes, transits and grade rods, or flat out dead reckoning, that are as accurate or even more accurate than we today can do with lasers. I've seen some springs, peat bogs and other things that are so complex, even today I'm amazed just how they figured it out, I've used their ideas plenty of times over the years and they still work. They were true pioneers in the industry, if they didn't feel it would work, they refused to do the work, I've been told his many times by landowners who've hired them over the years, some of the land has been in the same family for five generations now, maybe two or three different tile installers have done the work for on those farms through the whole timeframe, none have ever known a bad tile installation job, most of them never knew anything of poor quality installation existed, they'd never even heard of a bad job.
I guess you could say he took a gamble, that didn't pan out, and now he's got to figure out how to correct his mistake, the only thing he hadn't figured on was, nobody wants to fix or correct someone else's mistake.
After reading some of the responses, I can easily see why some would want to run away from this job, especially smaller contractors. But I'm still of the opinion that I'd get involved, and would relish the opportunity. If the guys got money, someone's going to do the job. And if I knew that I could do the job and have done many successful similar projects with similar soil conditions, I'd be even more interested. I've bid thousands of site work jobs, and many underdrain projects, but never any official "tile drain " jobs. Where I'm at, we're sitting at anywhere between 300' and 600' above sea level, and for the most part have well draining soils. But for the life of me, I don't see how anybody could possibly foul a job like this up, seems like tile drains have been around for a few thousand years in some form or another.
When I was working for a larger company, we took over and corrected many jobs that others had started and were either ill staffed, ill prepared, or ill funded. We always made out real well. But we did have an entire squad of lawyers at our disposal.
And unless the job was worth at least 300K, I wouldn't even waste my time, or my bosses time. A good legal team can work their way around most any obstacle. I t may not even apply to a situation like this, as I surely don't know any of the details, but in our case we usually took the following steps. We worked under the direction of an engineer for starters, we would make sure the money was escrowed to be released by a third party in a series of draws, and the big hammer was the" confession of judgment"
I'm not sure if it applies to other states, but it sure flies in Pa. In a Confession of judgment, you contractually take away the builder or owners right to any type of due process. No notices, no depositions, no witnesses, no nothing. The judge hears the case and swings the gavel in your favor. Period. And of course, the defendant is responsible for all legal fees as well. Again, I'm not saying that it's applicable in a case like this, it's just what we did many times.
So, yea, I'd go after the guy's money in a heartbeat. And if he thought my prices were high the first time around, he better be sitting down when he see's what it costs to fix someone else's problem.
When I was working for a larger company, we took over and corrected many jobs that others had started and were either ill staffed, ill prepared, or ill funded. We always made out real well. But we did have an entire squad of lawyers at our disposal.
And unless the job was worth at least 300K, I wouldn't even waste my time, or my bosses time. A good legal team can work their way around most any obstacle. I t may not even apply to a situation like this, as I surely don't know any of the details, but in our case we usually took the following steps. We worked under the direction of an engineer for starters, we would make sure the money was escrowed to be released by a third party in a series of draws, and the big hammer was the" confession of judgment"
I'm not sure if it applies to other states, but it sure flies in Pa. In a Confession of judgment, you contractually take away the builder or owners right to any type of due process. No notices, no depositions, no witnesses, no nothing. The judge hears the case and swings the gavel in your favor. Period. And of course, the defendant is responsible for all legal fees as well. Again, I'm not saying that it's applicable in a case like this, it's just what we did many times.
So, yea, I'd go after the guy's money in a heartbeat. And if he thought my prices were high the first time around, he better be sitting down when he see's what it costs to fix someone else's problem.
Tinkerer
Senior Member
Randy; your opening sentence says lot about the whole situation. I never ignore my own gut feelings when I am in a questionable situation.
CM1995
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Never heard of the term until now and after researching it, why would anyone in their right business mind agree to such a contract? That's beyond me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_of_judgment
It's great if you can get that sort of contract and state law to back it up but no one I work for would agree to such terms even if they were part of our state law, which it's not.
roddyo
Senior Member
Never heard of the term until now and after researching it, why would anyone in their right business mind agree to such a contract? That's beyond me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_of_judgment
It's great if you can get that sort of contract and state law to back it up but no one I work for would agree to such terms even if they were part of our state law, which it's not.
A mouse isn't worried about more cheese, he just wants out of the trap. The situation comes up in business from time to time also. I think that's when this is relevant.
CM1995
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I'm not understanding what you're saying roddyo.:beatsme
Why would anyone sign away their due process rights in a contract - owner or contractor? The way I read this type of contract is the party holding such contract can walk into a court and get a judgement on their testimony alone with nothing from the opposing party.
Then again I may be wrong in how I'm reading how this type of contract/law is set up.
That's why it's prohibited in many states. But it sounds like Randy's potential customer is in just such a jam. He want's somebody to fix his problems, AND help his suit against the former contractor, AND he's been turned down by a couple of contractors already. If the person in this jam trusts Randy enough, and/or is desperate enough, he'd sign the contract.
I doubt that it's legal in IA though, and my guess is that the cost of the original messed up job, Randy's repair AND the lawyers won't add up to $300k.
I doubt that it's legal in IA though, and my guess is that the cost of the original messed up job, Randy's repair AND the lawyers won't add up to $300k.
Another one of my experiences where you loose the right to file suit. If any of you have ever dealt with Lowes , they have you sign a waver that states you cannot file suit it goes to an arbitrator. I also learned this the hard way. I had Lowes do flooring in my house , they were 2000$ cheaper than my next bid , the high bid being 3000$ higher than Lowes. They made a mess out of my flooring.
This is an example. I threatened legal action and the store manager quickly pointed out that I have waved my rights. The thing , being in construction all my life , I knew better. Be sure to spread the word on this as well.
This is an example. I threatened legal action and the store manager quickly pointed out that I have waved my rights. The thing , being in construction all my life , I knew better. Be sure to spread the word on this as well.
CM, as far as why would anyone in their right mind sign it, I believe it's an act of desperation. As an estimator for 21 years I have been involved with this situation about 10 or 11 times. I can recall where more than a few were very willing to sign. If the builder or developer got taken by an shyster excavation outfit, and he has the money to rectify the situation and agrees to my proposal to fix said problem, he knows as soon as he signs, our fleet & crews would mobilize & get to work & get him out of very bad situation. We had the reputation to back it up. If he's up front & honest and willing to pay, why wouldn't he sign it ?
All of these " takeover" jobs I was involved with were very profitable.
Mr. Roddyo hit the nail on the head.
And, no you weren't reading it wrong, it's a simple as that. Gotta love PA ! I also believe that the COJ could possibly be challenged on a constitutional basis, or the defendant could say he signed under duress and insanity, but that's really a stretch.
All of these " takeover" jobs I was involved with were very profitable.
Mr. Roddyo hit the nail on the head.
And, no you weren't reading it wrong, it's a simple as that. Gotta love PA ! I also believe that the COJ could possibly be challenged on a constitutional basis, or the defendant could say he signed under duress and insanity, but that's really a stretch.