would you get involved?

Not sure where to put this, so I'll toss it in here. I've been approached to fix a botched job of ag drainage/tiling by the owner who's beyond upset. He wants me to figure out what was done wrong, which equates into more digging and looking and time that most can comprehend, document everything and then figure out how to undo and correct what was done, and make it work so instead of making his field so wet like it is now, which can't be farmed, its dry like its suppose to be and he can again farm it. Which wouldn't be a big deal until the subject of documentation came up, and to work with and consult with his hired attorney's to provide them with enough documentation and information to use to file a lawsuit and take the former contractor to court who botched the job so badly its not even funny.

Now maybe its just me, but I could have done the job right in the first place, but was overlooked for someone who did it so much cheaper, now after all the grief and headache I'm good enough to make it work and this time around cost isn't the issue.

I've done a few jobs of figuring out what this very same contractor screwed up for others, its big dollars by the time it was done, but also very time consuming, not a couple times more work, but instead of days to the job, its weeks, the last one was a month to redo and figure out what would have taken days to do right the first time. Standing and working in the worst conditions imaginable and getting madder and madder as I go along every day. I'm not sure how to even charge for the misery I'll have to endure, and that's not including educating attorney's and I know I'll be a star witness in the upcoming court case that's pending and the owner will need in order to win anything in court.

Now I've asked around some, I wasn't the first choice to do the job, certainly wasn't the first choice to redo this debacle but rather as far as I've been told, two before me turned it down flat, so from what I gathered I'm what came out of desperation is about what it amounts to, so I ask, would you even consider getting involved and if so, WHY?

I could do the job, I have no doubt I'll figure it out, I could also charge about anything I'd want, demand a bank letter of guarantee so payment wouldn't be an issue, I'm not at all concerned about doing it wrong and being sued myself, I know the person I'd be working for, he's a very fair and reasonable person, never before heard anything bad about him and all this could have been avoided if the botched job would have been addressed somewhat correctly by the crew that did the work, but they basically blew him off, gave a few bogus excuse's and walked away.

Seems to me that if the job is as botched as you say and the contractor kind of knows he screwed up that an out of court settlement would be a no brainer. That doesn't address your involvement I know,this is a real hard call.I would just have to say to trust your gut--repercussions can be a bitch.

The only way I'd get involved is if the owner hired an engineer with agricultural expertise and made a recommendation with his stamp on it. Fair and reasonable people have been known to sue people before.

If things still didn't go right the second time around, you could still get dragged into a lawsuit, but your exposure would be minimized by working under the auspices of an engineer.

And, I'd ask for a considerable amount up front as a sign of good faith.

If you know the guy that did the work, ask him what happend on the job ?? having his side of the story may give you another view..before you make up your mind.

Don't get involved. No good deed goes unpunished, that's why God made Engineers and Lawyers.

My gut reaction is to not get involved, it wasn't my mistake or my customer, as they say you get what you pay for.

There's only really one reason to do it, and that's the money. Right now I'm not short on work, none of it involves lawyers or courts, but rather happy customers in the end, not someone else's upset customer.

As for chatting with those that did the job, I've tried that in the past, didn't really get anywhere, I told them either get it together or their going to eventually wind up in court with legal actions against them, basically I was talked down to, so no more discussions, after all, as of yet, I'm not involved in any way, just a bystander sitting on the fence watching and listening.

As for settling out of court, first someone would have to threaten legal action, take action and then maybe something might happen, not really seeing anything happen before that point, and at that point, not sure there's liability insurance or the ability to pay out anything if you get the jest of the situation.

As for an engineer, doubt he can do a thing, till someone comes up with what was done, how it was done, how it was botched and then go from there, I would have to think about that, but thanks for the idea.

My point exactly, unless you have intimate knowledge of the events, stay away. Did the other Contractor design and build the drainage system? If not, who did and was it built as designed?

Remember there are three sides to every story, the Owners, the Builders and what really happened.

I wouldn't touch it with a 100' pole.

If you have enough work as it is, I wouldn't even consider getting dragged into that quagmire - pun intended. If you do decide to take the job then you need to price your time up front for all the "legal time" per hour for depositions, reports, etc. that is above and beyond your time spent in the field doing investigative work. The real time in a court case isn't necessarily in the court, it's outside it. If you want to be sworn under oath and barraged by the opposing attorney who goes through every detail of your investigative work in a deposition trying to find anything that would help his case, price your time accordingly.

I could see this case easily taking 4-5 years in court if the contractor has insurance. If the contractor doesn't have insurance then it will be over quicker, usually with nothing for the farmer in order of compensation, when they obtain a judgement. Legal issues like this are 9 times out of 10 all about the insurance coverages.

Furthermore, doesn't sound like this farmer is small potatoes either but I may be wrong. Did he choose the cheapest bid without checking for normal contract items like insurance? There is a reason why lowballers will always be in business, skirting under the radar getting jobs by promising the world, delivering shoddy work and not playing by the same regulations reputable contractors do. Greed gets many a person in trouble on both sides of the fence - contractors and owners alike.:cool2

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I feel for you... I have a similar situation where I am. Unfortunately, the farmer spent 80 grand and thought he had a good system. I told him he should have spent 150k, and been done with it. I would love to help him out, and will, but man its a huge undertaking when the pipes have to be relocated, grades taken, new pipes added along existing, and all the connections remade. HUGE EXPENSIVE PITA.

Personally, I wouldn't get involved if there is a dispute going on. You have all the work you can handle now, and this job will torpedo at few good jobs. Plus, you may find it can't be fixed, and has to be completely redone. It may never work right, and you will be the last guy who touched it.

Stay away...

Randy88 said:

Not sure where to put this, so I'll toss it in here. I've been approached to fix a botched job of ag drainage/tiling by the owner who's beyond upset. He wants me to figure out what was done wrong. Which wouldn't be a big deal until the subject of documentation came up, and to work with and consult with his hired attorney's to provide them with enough documentation and information to use to file a lawsuit and take the former contractor to court who botched the job so badly its not even funny.



I'm not sure how to even charge for the misery I'll have to endure, and that's not including educating attorney's and I know I'll be a star witness in the upcoming court case that's pending and the owner will need in order to win anything in court.

Now I've asked around some, I wasn't the first choice to do the job, certainly wasn't the first choice to redo this debacle but rather as far as I've been told, two before me turned it down flat, so from what I gathered I'm what came out of desperation is about what it amounts to

I could do the job, I have no doubt I'll figure it out, I could also charge about anything I'd want, demand a bank letter of guarantee so payment wouldn't be an issue, I'm not at all concerned about doing it wrong and being sued myself

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That's allot of red flags telling me to stay away from a job like that .

Randy , Just off hand . What do you think went wrong ?

Tile grade wrong ?

Crushed tile ?

I'm with everybody else who says that if you're busy enough already there's no reason to get involved.

That having been said, if you do feel the need to get involved, what about having the engineer direct and oversee you through the investigative process? Do the work on a time and material basis and just be the guy with the shovel. That way you're off-loading the responsibility for whatever it involves, and also for any shortcomings that may arise. Your expertise is in doing the work correctly, not playing forensic pathologist for somebody else's work that was done incorrectly. When that part is over, decide whether you're interested in doing the job the right way, and bid accordingly.

I don't do your kind of work and do see lots of red flags that I think would require an iron clad contract with a hold harmless agreement up front. In essence the farmer would have to pay all fees to protect you for any legal actions that might be filed against you.

Really though when you think about it, the farmer is asking for another contractor to complete a job. Why the other job failed is really not your concern if what you do does work. If he wants an opinion as to why the job failed, that would be another contract which makes you a forensic investigator which you could again make him sign another contract with another hold harmless agreement. What you discovered or uncovered should be reviewed by the suggested engineer who would become the expert witness in a court case. You might still have to testify but would only held to what you observed. Since you would be doing work on real estate you can guarantee payment by filing a lean against the property if you thought that was necessary. Most states allow that to be done after the fact if payment is not paid within the terms of the contract.

With all that, if you have good paying work already, why would you want to go through all that? The farmer sounds like a cheap skate anyway by using cheap and dirty to start with.

I am in the ag drainage business as well so I know where you are coming from. Unfortunately we spend a lot of our time figuring out what the guys before us have done. You almost have to enjoy solving the puzzles to get thru some of the jobs. I have been in these situations, typically indirectely by discovering problems that owners didn't realize were from existing tile issues. We never have engineers to lean on, nor would a farmer pay for one.
If you thought the money would be good enough have you thought about getting your own lawyer to draw up a contract for the job? I know how it goes and it will be hard to get enough to cover time lost laying pipe. It's almost impossible to charge enough to cover missed installation time. Do you have enough help to keep the equipment moving? Is the field enough of a mess that the farmer is willing to leave it till summer when you will have more time?
Just some of the thoughts from similar experiences.
Good luck.

If the previous contractor did what land owner wanted, and that failed? With out knowing why it failed then its hard to fix, will land owner be across from you in court next? Is previous contractor going to be a problem to your equipment and such down the road?

It will be a hard pressed law suit to ever prove wrong doing by an ag-drainage contractor in my opinion, I am assuming there was no engineering, thus allowing the contractor to install how and where he thought best. I would bet the costs will outweigh the reward to even begin to try and prove negligence on the contractor's behalf. One would have to almost dig up & document every inch of tile that was installed incorrectly to even prove it is actually there. With no engineering it is basically owner's word against the contractor's word. However, if there is a set of drawings and the tile was not installed in the manner called out, that is a different story and will carry a lot of weight in a court of law.

Keep in mind also that if you did the job and get called into court you will be taking time off from other jobs you are doing. If you have competent help that can continue on those jobs while you will gone it wouldn't be problem. But then again your absence could be quite costly for you. Personally I wouldn't even consider taking on that job after being passed over on the original project and,as you say you weren't the first choice to correct the disaster.

There are a couple of issues most are missing completely or forgetting, first is, a statute of limitations, the owner has a set amount of time to file suit, no attorney is going to do squat till there is ample evidence there is indeed a case to move forward with, now this is a double edged sword, first off in order to botch any tile job bad enough for it to that obvious, someone really screwed up big time, as its been stated many times before, "tile takes time" to work and do its job, on an evenly moderately botched job, it usually takes years for everyone to realize something is definitely wrong, long past the statute of limitations, so this is a major red flag on how bad things truly are. The owner is fighting time, he needs someone who knows something to do some exploring, know what they are looking for, come up with a diagnosis and take action, without this, there is nothing for anyone to worry about....................it also works against the owner..........all that's needed it to wait him out, all legal issues will dry and vanish into thin air.

Now anyone who does the job of looking, is hired to do just that, explore and look, they didn't do the work, and if whoever does the looking decides later on to attempt to fix it, he's been paid to have all the evidence he'll ever need to defend himself if needed, he's not doing it on his own dime, and then he can decide if he wants to get involved deeper and attempt to solve the problem, its not a one shot deal by any means. The other issue is, tile once put, doesn't really go anywhere, years from now, decades from now, anyone can and eventually will figure it out, once the contractor left, he left every bit of evidence behind and can't do a thing about it.

As for worrying about trouble with the contractor that did the work, I'm not intimidated by anyone, I'd be hired to do a job, flat out its what it gets down to, that philosophy works about the same as maybe I shouldn't lock up my machines, take precautions, a crook maybe offended he can't steal my stuff and take it out on my equipment, not going to worry about it or even give it a second thought.

As for being hard to prove negligence in court, its been done many times before, its not that hard really, these are gravity systems, all one has to do is prove things are not done according to gravity working on their side, I'd think it would much harder to defend anyone doing a botched job, how would any attorney explain water doesn't normally run downhill. I've had to explain things to many people over the years, kids can figure it out once they can see, its not rocket science. The last one I knew of that went to court, didn't take too long to get a verdict in the landowners favor, there is not a shortage of witness's to subpoena, experts to call to the stand, once the evidence is revealed and grade shots taken, its a pretty much slam dunk deal, the problem is to get to anyone to do the work of uncovering the evidence for all to see.

Now this paragraph every tile installer everywhere will understand, most of the rest will read it and be totally mystified. Anyone worth hiring is already busy, and is not about to let a machine installing tile sit idle to go dig anything for anyone by the hour, those that are looking for work, probably don't have the knowledge to ever figure their way out of a paper bag when it comes to anything tile related, least of all problem solving or troubleshooting.

I've thought about the summer work idea, letting it be till I have more time to worry about it, time will tell though, that's a long way off.

Just being curious Randy, since you've dealt with the original contractors before, what has he done to screw-up to the jobs?

Ed

It sounds like it could be a headache, but that doesn't mean that it might not be worthwhile with the right approach. Anything that has to do with courts, testimony, liability, etc., have it addressed by a lawyer and bill accordingly. If you need the work and you can cover yourself and make the money that you need or want to, it's worth looking at.

Without knowing what the scope of work is or having any experience in ag drainage, what would it cost to re-do the job from scratch vs. trying to fix a system where the only thing known about it is that it was done wrong?

I do not do tile work and know next to nothing about it. Just reading your story made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. All of the reasons that the previous posters gave for not getting involved are true. I would run for the nearest exit. You did mention that you have enough work to keep you busy. I would get after my own work and monitor the situation from far away.