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NonDpf vs Dpf

JCBiron

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Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
Location
St. Louis, MO
I mentioned proper storage for DEF. There is a lot of confusion surrounding this topic. DEF does freeze, but freezing does usually harm it in any way. Heat will effect it and shorten its shelf life. DEF needs to be kept out of sunlight and preferably in cooler temperatures. Over 80* the shelf life really starts dropping. 86* constant will net a 2 year shelf life. Get over 100* and you are down to less than 6 months at best. At 32* it will last forever, 70* will go over 5 years. Its important to take this into consideration when buying. Bulk or IBC totes will be the best pricing (I pay $1.70 bulk delivered) but you need to be able to use it up before it will go bad. When it will go bad depends on how you store it and when it was produced to begin with. Your supplier should have a born on date or batch code for you to look this info up. It's best to store it in a shop and this works fine for some people, but for those who have to go out to the jobsite it can be a pain. It's best to store it in a closed system as well, sealed from the environment. Our system is from PIUSI. It was a little over $1,500. Some people will transfer from bulk to jugs to take with them. This can work, but since it is an open system there is always a risk of contamination. Generally the main issue from this method is plugged DEF filters.

Keep in mind when talking temperatures and storage with DEF....the temp recommendations/ratings are based off a day's average temperature. So even if you have a stretch of 100deg. weather, your average temp over 24 hrs is still most likely in the low 80's. And unless you live in the desert, this window of temperatures may only be relevant for a couple months out of the year.

We have literally had zero issues related to degradation of DEF quality due to temperature. The key is obviously not buying more than you can use/need in a couple year time span, and yes, you are correct, keeping it out of direct sunlight also helps. Don't know many guys that store it outside in the elements.

Freezing has no impact on quality whatsoever, and the systems are designed to deal with frozen fluid a couple different ways....one by circulating coolant through the system to thaw everything out, as well as the equipment "knowing" the temp and not throwing up the "No DEF" flag until the machine is at an acceptable temp.

If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of DEF/SCR over DPF/Regen.....I would simply rather control emissions after the engine, not WITH it.
 

KSSS

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I also would rather control emissions after the engine than within it. However got word today that cost for the 2015 CASE machines with DEF will be 10% more, not 6%. The SV300 will not be increased to a 340 sized machine as I was initially told. The 10% will cost me an additional $5k. I am starting to rethink this.
 

JCBiron

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Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
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St. Louis, MO
Yeah, looks like the higher end of the wheeled line up is staying the same....you will be getting a TR310 and TR340 to replace your beloved TR320:D
 

KSSS

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Yea I saw that. It was a little easier for me to pay more for SCR when I thought that the ROC was getting increased as well. I am struggling with 10% increase and the only changes being that addition of SCR. I think if the OEM's are going to make these SCR price increases more palatable, they need to include some other machine improvements at the same time. We found a new 2014 SV300 from Titan Equipment that is loaded as I want it, we are going to try and lock the machine up, it is in the oil patch so hopefully they will let it go.
 

DirtCrawler

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Apr 22, 2014
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https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/...osan-in-bobcat
Originally Posted by crewchief888 View Post
doosan has been building engines for over 50 years.....

of the 2 i'd pick the non DPF doosan.
just because is non DPF.

on the kubota engines if you ignore or override passive regen warnings the engine will "detune" itself by as much as 75%

by that time theres nothing an owner or operator can do, except call out the dealer have have them do a parked/service regen.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/...-Purchase-Help
Originally Posted by Digdeep View Post
The Cat DPFs don't need to be cleaned at 1500hrs. My buddy sells them in Wisconsin and they have 242Ds in Dairies pushing 2500hrs and they have not had to be cleaned yet. The cleaning interval depends on the exhaust gas temps and how hard you work your machine when its running. I also have multiple buddies still selling Bobcats (I used to be a Bobcat salesman with them) and the new Tier IV Bobcats derate in cold weather until the engine is running hot enough. This is in right in their the OMM and the machine beeps at you when it derates. He said when it was cold this winter they had customers waiting up to an hour of running before the machine wouldn't derate anymore.

Originally Posted by Digdeep View Post
It derates because the exhaust gas temps are too low. Has nothing to do with oil at start-up. This is because their Tier IV machines do not have a DPF. Cat's machines have a DPF and don't rely on higher exhaust gas temps to burn off the particulate matter (PM) because the DPF stops the ash (PM).


Ok,
So NONDPF im assuming you have a cold weather problem where the exhaust temps cant keep up so it derates the engine. Correct?
and with the DPF im assuming you stand the chance of loosing 75% power (derate) if you ignore a regen.
So in either case your machine is derateing whether dpf or nondpf. Correct?
and the NONDPF wouldnt have to derate in the summer since its not cold, where the DPF is still gonna regen all year around. Correct?

On average how often does the cat have to do a regen. If im running the throttle in the green zone 95% of the time?

What happens at the end of the day, its 2am and I want to go home, and I just pulled the machine into the garage and it wants to regen. Can I just shut it off and go home or am I gonna have to let it do its thing.



------ Anybody ????
 
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https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/...osan-in-bobcat


https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/...-Purchase-Help





Ok,
So NONDPF im assuming you have a cold weather problem where the exhaust temps cant keep up so it derates the engine. Correct?
and with the DPF im assuming you stand the chance of loosing 75% power (derate) if you ignore a regen.
So in either case your machine is derateing whether dpf or nondpf. Correct?
and the NONDPF wouldnt have to derate in the summer since its not cold, where the DPF is still gonna regen all year around. Correct?

On average how often does the cat have to do a regen. If im running the throttle in the green zone 95% of the time?

What happens at the end of the day, its 2am and I want to go home, and I just pulled the machine into the garage and it wants to regen. Can I just shut it off and go home or am I gonna have to let it do its thing.



------ Anybody ????

There in lies the problem. You can absolutely shut off your machine. Is it good for it.... nope... If you keep doing that, you can clog the DPF. Can you get to it later, sure, but over time, if you do that, that number of hours between DPF cleanings goes down.

To answer your question about re-gens, it's my understanding that you can be running at 100% on RPM's and still not work the machine hard enough to burn off the DPF materials. You have to really work the machine hard to get it to burn naturally, RPM's are the measure to go by. I know that's a bit vague, but that's what I have been told.
 

DirtCrawler

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Apr 22, 2014
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111
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So whats the best option
a Bobcat with a new doosan engine without dpf that apparently burns hotter to do away with the particulates. No regen to worry about, no dpf filter to worry about. new technology to do away with the dpf filter. With a dealer that has told me that when cold it takes a while for it to come up to operating temperature before you get full use of the engine.
or
a Cat with a tried kubota engine with dpf that apparently had to regen after so many hours to do away with the particulates and some say dpf filters are old technology. A dealer that has told me that as long as you leave it in the green operating zone that it wont need to regen as its always cleaning when in the green. New Holland claims that their dpf tractors need to regen after approx 4hrs of useage. Shimmy is saying about every 8hrs for his case. Cat dealer is saying never as long as you operate in the green zone on the throttle. ??
 
Joined
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Everywhere the military takes me
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So whats the best option
a Bobcat with a new doosan engine without dpf that apparently burns hotter to do away with the particulates. No regen to worry about, no dpf filter to worry about. new technology to do away with the dpf filter. With a dealer that has told me that when cold it takes a while for it to come up to operating temperature before you get full use of the engine.
or
a Cat with a tried kubota engine with dpf that apparently had to regen after so many hours to do away with the particulates and some say dpf filters are old technology. A dealer that has told me that as long as you leave it in the green operating zone that it wont need to regen as its always cleaning when in the green. New Holland claims that their dpf tractors need to regen after approx 4hrs of useage. Shimmy is saying about every 8hrs for his case. Cat dealer is saying never as long as you operate in the green zone on the throttle. ??

I will have to go get the manual in the Cat, but I am pretty sure running it just in the green isn't enough. If just over 50% power gets it done I'd be shocked.

As far as hotter engines, etc. I had it explained to me this way. The engine doesn't necessarily run hotter, they are hotter due to pressure in the high pressure rail that feeds the injectors. Because of the pressure, this fuel is extremely hot, which is why everyone had to increase their cooling. It's my understanding that the majority of the fuel that goes through the pressure rail and injectors actually gets returned to tank. It goes through the cooler, then the tank. So after saying all that, don't they all run hotter and all use high pressure rails now? If that's the case, I don't know that one runs much hotter than the other (as far as burning fuel goes). Right??? I think there must be another reason why the engines don't need a DPF. I know Case doesn't have them on a couple of their machines either.

Any techy's in here know the answer? I don't think it's because they're burning hotter.
 

Digdeep

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Mar 6, 2007
Messages
704
Location
Wisconsin
I was told directly from a Bobcat salesman that the new non-DPF Doosan engines burn more fuel than the Kubota engines they replaced. He figures it is at least a half gallon per hour on average and more on the 600 series, and thinks its a combination of a smaller displacement putting out the same hp (2.6L to a 2.4L on the 500 series and 3.3L to a 2.4L on the 600 series) and higher exhaust gas temps.
 

Shimmy1

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North Dakota
If they don't have DPF they have DEF fluid unless they are Tier 3 or older. Simple as that. With a DEF system the burning urea mixes with the exhaust gas and dilutes it. As far as them being hotter I believe the only engines that are hotter in general are the DPF and only are hotter while in regen.
 

DirtCrawler

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If they don't have DPF they have DEF fluid unless they are Tier 3 or older. Simple as that. With a DEF system the burning urea mixes with the exhaust gas and dilutes it. As far as them being hotter I believe the only engines that are hotter in general are the DPF and only are hotter while in regen.

Ok wait.
Bobcat literature says that a S590 doesnt have dpf or def, also confirmed by bobcat salesman. But it has some special exhaust combustion tank on it. So since it doesnt have dpf then whats happening cause apparently according the salesman it doesnt need to regen either.

and in the case of the cat system, if im understanding correctly, exhaust temperatures need to be HOT to burn off the particulate matter in regen. So if it was way cold like last winter, am I too assume that there's going to be a lot more regening going on more often because its so cold out and the exhaust temps cant stay high enough to burn off the particulate matter?
 

KSSS

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Typically engines under 75 hp are using a DOC which is a diesel Catalyst much like the Cat in your car. Over 75 hp use either a DPF, SCR (diesel exhaust fluid) or both to get to Tier 4 final.

I would guess that cold weather will result in more regens, especially if the machine is not working very hard.
 

Digdeep

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704
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Wisconsin
Ok wait.
Bobcat literature says that a S590 doesnt have dpf or def, also confirmed by bobcat salesman. But it has some special exhaust combustion tank on it. So since it doesnt have dpf then whats happening cause apparently according the salesman it doesnt need to regen either.

and in the case of the cat system, if im understanding correctly, exhaust temperatures need to be HOT to burn off the particulate matter in regen. So if it was way cold like last winter, am I too assume that there's going to be a lot more regening going on more often because its so cold out and the exhaust temps cant stay high enough to burn off the particulate matter?

The bobcats with the new Doosan engines derate until the exhaust gas temps are hot enough from the machine working. The machine will beep at you to tell you it is derated. It sometimes took up to 1 hour on wheeled machines here in Madison WI last winter, but it was a colder than normal winter.
 

DirtCrawler

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The bobcats with the new Doosan engines derate until the exhaust gas temps are hot enough from the machine working. The machine will beep at you to tell you it is derated. It sometimes took up to 1 hour on wheeled machines here in Madison WI last winter, but it was a colder than normal winter.

So they derate on start up until warmed up only, or they derate constantly throughout the day/nigt depending on how cold it is out.
When it derates, how much hp loss are you talking.
Im guessing the effect is something like my 2002 compact diesel tractor (no dpf/no doc/no def/ pre epa crap). Where it just doesnt want to move until the engine is nice and warm. You can use it but at a very limited capacity until its warmed up.
Only it sounds like the Doosan could be worse?
 
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Digdeep

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So they derate on start up until warmed up only, or they derate constantly throughout the day/nigt depending on how cold it is out.
When it derates, how much hp loss are you talking.
Im guessing the effect is something like my 2002 compact diesel tractor (no dpf/no doc/no def/ pre epa crap). Where it just doesnt want to move until the engine is nice and warm. You can use it but at a very limited capacity until its warmed up.
Only it sounds like the Doosan could be worse?

The way it was explained to me is that the machine derates until the engine has worked hard enough to raise the exhaust gas temps. I don't know how much hp it loses, but the salesman did comment that it was frustrating for the guys doing snow removal. From what I understand the machine still runs, but has less hp. There is a horn and some sort of flashing light that lets you know the machine is derated. I have not witnessed it and this information from a salesman I used to sell with.
 

Digdeep

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Mar 6, 2007
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So they derate on start up until warmed up only, or they derate constantly throughout the day/nigt depending on how cold it is out.
When it derates, how much hp loss are you talking.
Im guessing the effect is something like my 2002 compact diesel tractor (no dpf/no doc/no def/ pre epa crap). Where it just doesnt want to move until the engine is nice and warm. You can use it but at a very limited capacity until its warmed up.
Only it sounds like the Doosan could be worse?

the salesman texted me back and said that the LCD display shows the word "COLD" and limits engine speed and hp. They had machines do this for up to an hour during snow events and it is based on how hard you can work the engine. harder digging and running high flow attachments put a bigger load on the engine so the exhaust and fuel temps increase. He said its a real PITA for light work applications.
 

StumpyWally

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A little off topic, but still emission related...
For those of you with experience, what's your feeling about "common rail" fuel injection vs. the traditional direct approach. It seems more and more diesels are going that way as they try various schemes to lessen their emissions.
 

Shimmy1

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Common rail vs. Injection pump. This is an easy one. Reason engine builders have gone to common rail is the ability to tailor injection timing and volume so precisely. Also, unit injectors are capable of ridiculously high injection pressures which helps the combustion process be more efficient, i.e. cleaner. Higher pressures, accurate volume, perfect timing, all these allow more power with less fuel out of smaller displacement engines. The common rail fuel system has actually been around for decades longer than the emissions debate. I'm not sure if they were first, but Detroit had it in the 30's, when they came out with their two-strokes.
 
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John C.

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As I recall from my navy days the common rail fuel system was one of the original designs for diesel engines.
 
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