Cat259D/289D vs Bobcat T590/T650

Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to this line of work. I am looking for opinions on two items:

Cat vs Bobcat? (they and Case are the only dealers local to me so other ones like Tak and Kabota don't matter)

259D/T590 vs 289D/T650?


The first one is obvious, and I know it will come down to a matter of my own opinion and what I find most important. Please provide any thoughts regarding Cat and Bobcat and why one company is generally better than the other, in your opinion. This will help me confirm, or change, my opinions as they currently stand.

Second, I am torn between the two general model sizes represented by the 259D/T590 and 289D/T650 so any thoughts on that would greatly be appreciated on why one is better than the other.

I am a sole operator of the company and have been running it as a hauling company while building up business. Now I am at the edge of taking the step into the Compact Track Loader world so I can do work more in line with my interests such as cement removal, grading, debris removal, and the like.

The machine I buy, from either manufacturer and of any of the four models, will have:
- Cab with AC (I am in Florida, and it is damn hot here)
- Wide tracks (Florida sand is everywhere)
- Regular flow hydraulics (no plan on running bushwhacker and such, however a god deal could get me into Hi-Flow as a future growth)
- Joystick controls
- Advanced displays
- Power attachment connector

Attachments I plan on buying:
- Industrial grapple
- Hammer/breaker
- 6 way dozer blade
- Bucket
- Possiblly a bushcat/mulcher for land clearing

All of the above being said, any advice on anything you can think of to help me get started would be greatly appreciated.

I have a BigTex 14ET-16 equipment trailer rated at 14,000 pounds (or 11,500 leftover once subtracting trailer weight) It is being pulled by a Ford F700 dump truck so towing and stopping the trailer and CTL will not be an issue I imagine.

As for attachments, is it better to by the name brand Cat/Bobcat stuff, or is going 3rd party like Bradco the better option? I like being able to finance attachments at 0% as part of the main purchase so that is nice, but not sure if the added cost is justified v third party items..

I have a demo of the Cat machines this Friday and I have previously driven the Bobcats over the years, including the T590 and T750.

Any thoughts on the above would be great, as would any comments about things i have not even mentioned or thought of that some of you may have gone through when starting out.

Thanks!
Dave

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS SHADOWCAT!!!! You said it right when you said "it will all come down to your personal opinion"! I would highly recommend on doing your research on the differences in customer support between your 2 dealears. I love bobcat because my local bobcat dealer takes care of me at a good price and my local cat company tends to be on the high side when it comes to there repair and maintence. That being said, your situation could be completely opposite of mine. Both manufactures make good machines, however both have there downs. You are on par comparing the 259 and 590 however the 289 would be more on par with the 750 or 770. I however would def be looking at the 650 because it is a good size machine between the two sizes you seem to be interested in. If you go low flow then a rotary cutter will be your only option! As far as attachments go, the 0% financing is hard to beet, however 3rd hand parties do make better attachments in a lot of the different fields (construction attachments limited is the only brand 4 in 1 bucket that I will ever buy)! You also need to try to look into the future some on some of your future investments; if you plan on buying a compact excavator in the future then you might be better off with buying a a certain brand hammer (ex: bobcats skid steer breakers and augers will work on the skid loader and there excavators with the pull of a pin. Not sure about cat.). Let us know about your future questions and tell us how the demo works out for you!

I've owned both and am neither a CAT or Bobcat fanboy - I am a Komatsu fanboy, who oddly owns no Komatsu equipment . CAT holds together better and is more productive. I've spent a lot of time in Bobcats doing the hand/foot controls and and I love love love love the CAT joystick setup - the Bobcat joystick setup just doesn't compare. It basically comes down to what you have for start up capital, cash flow issues - Bobcat costs a lot less than CAT but you'll get a lot more for a CAT in trade in. If all I did was snow and landscaping the choice is obvious - Bobcat, I don't, so it's CAT.

It's generally better to wrap all your attachments/tools into the purchase/lease price for the tools you know you are always going to use.

Check out ASV too if it's an option. They are what the CAT machines were based on. Is ASV Terex now? You might get some killer deals as Terex is looking to break into the market with their rebranded machines.

Excellent, thanks for the replies guys... always great to get info from those already in the field!

To respond to both of your posts:

JCA57jd:
As far as dealer support/relations this is what has happened so far:
- Bobcat: I set the appointment to go to their shop and demo the machines. The day I arrived, we sat in the machines (T590/650) and talked. He showed me the options and such but did not go into to much detail. I had to ask to actually drive one, it was not offered. I was put in a T750 because it was already dirty and they apparently did not want to move the 590/650 from the front where they were being displayed, even though those are the one I am interested in. I understand the 750 is close enough to get an idea, but still... So at the end, I get some brochures and he emails me the quote (which was high relative to some out of state Bobcat quotes I got prior just to set a baseline... not including state taxes, so just base costs) I have not heard from him since.. no calls to see if I want to buy, not checking to see if I had questions, etc.
- Cat: I demo the machines tomorrow (yeah!!!) and they have already secured both the 259d and 289d, both with enclosed cabs and such... so basically the exact setup I want to demo. The Cat rep either emails me daily or we talk on the phone. I have had him generate literally 20 or so quotes for various setups (low-flow, highflow, various attachments, etc) He has even offered to try to put me in touch with some big clients who may want to sub me out for smaller jobs that they may not want to do.

Needless to say, I am liking the Cat treatment better at the moment... I also feel pretty good that if the machine breaks down in the field, one of 40 Cat service trucks in the central florida area will be out to fix it within the hour as promised. Bobcat... not so much. They didn't even mention a service truck, let alone a fleet of them. I am sure they have some, but you would think that is a selling point. I am confident if I have an issue I will be able to get ahold of the Cat rep the same day.... Point to Cat!

I thought the 289d was more on par with T650... oh well, bigger machine then! That makes the price difference between the 289d and T650 more understandable, so that is good to hear. I like the fact the Cat's come with wide tracks standard (another price offset to consider) because in Florida there is so much sand and lose dirt that getting stuck with thin tracks seems a distinct possibility depending on the job site.

The 0% is good... I am going to see if they go 72/84 months... lower the monthly payment, the more attachments I could get so as to be a bit diversified. The Cat rep menitoned some "barely used" attachments that I wanted as options to full price new, so that may help total costs.

As far as attachments go, could you guys list some good brands besides the Cat/Bobcat brands. I had never heard of Construction Attachments, so thanks for that name... there are so many little 3rd party attachment places out there I get worried about quality so the feedback here is great to get so I can assume good quality if I purchase from them.


David427:
Thanks for the comparisons between the two. I drove the joysticks in the bobcat, and it seemed a bit jerky. However, I chalked that up to being they kept the machine at low power and I was in a very confined spot so I could only move in basically a 35 foot square bot. My demo tomorrow with Cat is supposed to be in a big open field, so I will get a great feel for the joysticks as well as their suspension.

As for capital/cashflow, I am doing this as a "hobby" on the weekends. I say hobby because it keeps the pressure off. My primary job is as a computer engineer so that is where my money comes from to pay for this. However, that being said, I am trying to keep my personal finances separate from my business finances so I will only draw from my bank account if I run short in a month while growing the business. I do hauling still, so that brings in a portion of my forecasted costs (I am assuming about $1,400-1750 per month for Cat+attachments if I do 60 months) so a job or two with the machine should pay the monthly bill. I want to make a big profit of course, but my circumstance allows me to have some breather room as well. If this works out great, I would eventually consider expanding the business... but for now I will be happy if it pays all of it's own bills and allows me to take my wife on a couple vacations a year. The computer job is so mind numbing sitting in front of a computer all day...

ASV is not an option. It is Cat, Bobcat, and Case. The Case rep took a week to get back to me after I initially made contact... so they have not really been in the running at all. If I can't get communication to buy a machine, I assume I won't get any to have an issue taking care of.


Thanks for the info guys, keep giving me ideas or things I should look for. I appreciate your time.

Oh, btw, I am thinking of changing my initial attachment loadout... so any recommendations on brands could be helpful for specific items:

- Industrial grapple
- Bushcutter/Bushhog (Cat rep says they have a "barely used" Diamond High Flow 72" Mower Deck. for $8k vs $9.5k new)
- Hammer/Breaker (this is for diversification of business but could easily be dropped for something else)
- Mulcher (may rent for awhile due to cost) - Cat rep says Fecon BH74 is 26,200 new, or they have a hm315 mulcher head made by cat for $15k. I have seen videos of the Fecon and it looks great, not sure if the HM315 is comparable... thoughts?

So you can see I dropped to dozer blade idea for now and may focus more on the land clearing side. It seems that I could fill a nitch below the real big companies in the field, yet above the guy with a crew of chain saw weilding people.

A lease might be an idea too, the end of lease bit will probably be around $17k ish. CAT/JD/Bobcat generally offer mirror financial rates and terms.

I've used Cat buckets, bobcat buckets, and several 3rd hand party buckets. Cal is the only bucket I personally will buy. It is by far, way more door able than any of the other ones! http://www.constructionattachments.com/products/multi_purpose_bucket_severe_lowpro.html
I honestly find a 4 in 1 bucket as pretty much the most versatile attachment that I have on my loader! It allows me to do so much more than a standard bucket. Every time i run a machine with a regular bucket I feel naked. You can use it as your grapple for moving material as well unless you plan on doing a lot of clearing or have a ton of debris that you will need a grapple for.

Other than that I would probable take advantage of the other attachments through your dealer on your purchase because of the financing! Ask your dealer about the breaker being detached from the quick connect plate and working on there compact excavators! This will save you in the long run because I find myself in lots of situations were a breaker is more beneficial for me on an excavator and if the attachment will work on there mini then you could simple rent a cat mini! Same goes for the auger.

I use a cid bushhog and it has been bullet proof for me so far. Blue diamond and bradco make awesome high flow units as well. The diamond brand seems to be built pretty tuff but I haven't ever used one or heard many reviews on them.

I would do more research in your local market as far as mulching goes! They are very expensive attachments and I would make sure your going to get the work for it before you buy it. There are tons of high end mulching brands (fae, loftiness, Denis climaf, fecon, advance forestry products, ect.... If you start off with a bushog then it will give you a good idea of the mulching market over time. If you plan on making mulching one of your main services then high flow is your only option and I would def be looking at the 299d xhp over the 289d because hydraulic horse power [(aux gpm X aux pressure)/1714] and hydraulic cooling systems are going to be your biggest concerns to run a mulcher the most efficiently!!!

I would highly recommend looking at the bradco ground shark hard! It will give you some good mulcher benefits and act as a regular bushhog with a price tag less than any mulcher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43m-SXI7aiM

It sounds like cat is going to be your best dealer so I would probable been leaning in that direction in your situation.

I asked about leasing and the initial numbers were only about $100 difference per month over buying. I guess the 0% financing eliminates part of the cost savings a lease provides.

JCA, how much was the CID bushcutter, if you don;t mind me asking. Comparable to the prices I listed above? I will definitely ask about the breaker being usable on the Excavator.

As for mulching, I think i will definitely get a bushcutter of some sort initially. I would consider the larger mulcher if I land a contract early. The reason I mention that is a guy called me about clearing 18 acres of land (he called me via my hauling ad for debris and yard waste!) A lot of the trees are bigger than 12-14 inches, but there is a ton of underbrush and small trees. I figure that is a significant job and if he signed on to pay me x dollars and it was worth buying the bigger mulcher, I would do so.

I am not sure I can jump higher to the 299xd from 289d. I was initially favoring the 259, but then as I started thinking of brush cutting and the like, the 289d seemed the more practical choice vs the 259d. Not sure I could jump from 259d to 299xd. Perhaps if I make a good amount of money/business I could upgrade if needed in a year or two. I am definitely getting High Flow now though rather than regular flow like I thought I would for simple land grading and such.

The Bradco Ground Shark looks pretty good! I'll have to see what the cost is. I also have to compare to the Cat attachments of course do to the financing/single monthly payment option.

Ask lumberjack about the bradco land shark as he just bought one! I bought a CID cash from rootgrapple.com for about 3100 I think.... If your willing to drive al the way up to Denton nc then you can defiantly save a good bit of money! Mine is a low flow 60" extreme duty:

You should make an effort to demo the case machine also. Don't let the sales rep make the decision for you. I own a case and it has taken a 700 hour beating doing work that is far beyond what you probably could imagine. I would not use track machine for concrete demo. I have never ran a skid steer in sand so I am not really sure how the wheels do.

I have looked at a lot of tracked machines. An older Takeuchi t140 or t150 would be my choice.

Advanced displays are better suited for jets. Skids get beat and low.tech is best.

My case 75xt is 2000 lbs lighter with the same horsepower as the 259d cat. Non turbo engine. It will run till hell freezes over.

The only reason a heavier machine could be needed are 3 things i have come across. Moving full pallets of say concrete blocks. Moving cut trees larger than 30" and longer than 15'. Or picking up slabs of concrete that are so.big it is hard to get them in a dump truck. And running a high flow mulcher. Which from what I have heard the Skids must be run at full throttle and they burn fuel like mad and you push it to its limits causing a short life span compared to larger land clearing machines.

A HEAVY DUTY grapple is needed and a toothed bucket and a smooth bucket. I have never needed a breaker the machine can break most concrete under 6" thick and it is way faster to load large pieces.

Oh and by the way. Most All the new machines being made are inferior. The manufactor's have lost there old school hands and apparently do not have any true operators helping design the machines. Who in the hell thought it was a great idea to need to raise the boom to get into the machine to.work on it. You should be fired. The old.school machines have true armored ass ends that you could back straight through a thicket with out a stick going through the radiator. The holes in the rear doors are a joke. And further which dip decided that the machine needs fragile electronics. If you think it is so.great warranty the crap.for life.

Door Impacts


If you work around big trees often in un-leveled areas you might appreciate this pic. I have backed into many trees. On a level backing you will just hit the steel counter weight if the tree grew straight up and the tree can not touch the rest of the machine. A few weeks ago I was grading on a hill side around trees. The trees grew straight but the ground is on an angle.

This can cause ONLY the top of the door to take the impact. I hit a tree 2 weeks ago at full speed backing on top of the door. It was a hard lick. It hurt me sitting in the seat. But the machine was fine. "A good rule is if it hurts you it hurts the machine". It only chipped the paint on the hinge. It tweaked it a little. Most new machines would require repairs if you did that. It is very easy to hit things in reverse and when working on bad ground.

Make sure to check out the machines rear doors. If my door had failed it could have cost me two radiators or even other big expensive hard parts.

Georgia Iron said:

Advanced displays are better suited for jets. Skids get beat and low.tech is best.


Which from what I have heard the Skids must be run at full throttle and they burn fuel like mad and you push it to its limits causing a short life span compared to larger land clearing machines.

Oh and by the way. Most All the new machines being made are inferior. The manufactor's have lost there old school hands and apparently do not have any true operators helping design the machines.

Click to expand...

SS, mini excavators and just about anything for that matter will burn a lot of full when using hydraulic work tools, more so if they are high flow. Everything has a life cycle, you just have to be aware of that and bid accordingly.

Today's machines are much better than those of yesterday, by far (with the exception of the emissions stuff). I started operating equipment and cranes in the early 80's. The machines I operated were from the 60's and 70's. Their haulmarks were - heavy, slow, uncomfortable to operate but they did last a long time. Today's machines are engineered to do a lot more from a small package, the are efficient, highly productive, versatile, safer and apparently eco friendlier.

I find your, the aren't consulting with operators anymore, remark in regards to machine design to be amusing. If they were indeed doing that in the past then apparently the OEMs were consulting with the Marquis De Sade. I often joke that they used to design a machine and then the last thing they would do is say, hmm, I guess we need to find a place to put an operator's station.

If you find yourself often backing into trees you might want to consider a forestry package, one of them there new fangled back up camera or just stop backing into trees in general.

[clean UOTE =David427;511999]SS, mini excavators and just about anything for that matter will burn a lot of full when using hydraulic work tools, more so if they are high flow. Everything has a life cycle, you just have to be aware of that and bid accordingly.

Today's machines are much better than those of yesterday, by far (with the exception of the emissions stuff). I started operating equipment and cranes in the early 80's. The machines I operated were from the 60's and 70's. Their haulmarks were - heavy, slow, uncomfortable to operate but they did last a long time. Today's machines are engineered to do a lot more from a small package, the are efficient, highly productive, versatile, safer and apparently eco friendlier.

I find your, the aren't consulting with operators anymore, remark in regards to machine design to be amusing. If they were indeed doing that in the past then apparently the OEMs were consulting with the Marquis De Sade. I often joke that they used to design a machine and then the last thing they would do is say, hmm, I guess we need to find a place to put an operator's station.

If you find yourself often backing into trees you might want to consider a forestry package, one of them there new fangled back up camera or just stop backing into trees in general. [/QUOTE]

Ha. I am not that old. I would have thought you could tell from my pics I'm talking about equipment that is 10 to 15 years old. your reference to a forestry package to me means the machine is under built to begin with. I find my machine specifically my skid steer is better built and more thought out than any skid steer on the market today.

I recently rented a new New Holland machine which is supposed to be similar to case. I found that I could run circles around the new bigger machine with my older machine. I don't know too much about cranes but in the skid steer world nothing new and great has occurred other than marketing schemes with vertical vs radial lift designs.
horsepower versus weight has also changed with horsepower being less on the same weight machine


the single most important feature that could be put on a skid steer would be aN air cleaner over pressurization fan on the machine to make sure operators breathe clean air. dust is brutal
,AC is a convenience but clean air to breathe is not a convenience it is critical for long-term health

if you've never hit a tree running a skid steer my guess is you haven't ran a skid steer much. without my skid steer I would go out of business and I would lose everything that I have.