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Basic CTL Questions

SMLWinds

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Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Tappahannock, VA
Guys-I am new to the forum here and for the most part, new to heavy equipment. I am in the market for a compact track loader. I was hoping you guys could give me some guidance.

First of all, I don't do this for a living and never will. This machine will be used around my home, farm, and rental properties for various tasks. I know right now I will be using it for a retaining wall project where it will be shuttling dirt and loading some dirt into a dump truck. I will also be putting out some rip rap at a lakehouse, moving pallets of blocks, doing some grading and excavating around my home, etc.

My first question is radial vs. vertical lift pattern. I have done some research and it seems like a real toss up. I think overall the radial would probably suit the majority of my needs better but I know I will be loading some dirt into a dump truck so want to make sure it is able to do that. I know the vertical lift machines excel at this a little better while the radials are preferred for ground level work. But, can you do either with either machine? Is there one that would be more versatile for general miscellaneous use?

My next question is whether I go with a new one or a used one. I have the means to buy a new one but feel silly doing that because I'm never going to put thousands of hours on it. You could argue that if I buy new it would maintain it's value because of low hours and light use but you could also argue to buy a machine with 2K or 3K hours on it that I will probably still never wear out. Any thoughts on new vs. used, how they hold their value, etc. are appreciated.

If I do go with a used machine, where is the best place to find them? I don't see much of anything on craigslist and I'm kind of afraid of buying one at an auction when I don't know a tremendous amount about them. I have been on machinerytrader.com which appears to have some reasonable machines for decent prices.

Lastly, any brands you definitely do or don't want? I know there is passion with a lot of folks for a certain brand, but just wanted to see if there are any brands out there that most eveyone would agree are lemons or are superior to the rest.

Thanks for your help!
 

hmearth

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May 10, 2014
Messages
238
Location
Australia.
Most big brand ctl and mtl are good buying second hand well you could be buying some one else's problem if you have the means to buy new do it.
I've had both radial and vertical lift machines for me vertical is better because of the lift height but I got by ok with radial.

Best of luck with what ever you get.
 

Swannny

Senior Member
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Jan 9, 2012
Messages
274
Location
USA
Radial vs. vertical issue is a moot point in your situation, imo. Not sure you'd require a dedicated track machine either as they're more expensive out of the gate, used or new, and more expensive to maintain. Sounds like you could do quite well with a low hr. rubber tire skid with over-the-tire tracks, or with VTS tracks (have to be careful about your trailer setup with VTS since it can add 2500 to 3500 pounds to the weight of the machine).
 

SMLWinds

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Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Tappahannock, VA
Thanks for the responses. What is the typical decrease in vertical lift when you compare comparable radial vs. vertical lift machines? For example, if a vertical lift model can reach 8 feet, what is the typical max vertical reach of a comparable radial lift machine?

I agree with you about the tracks being more expensive, maintenance, etc. However, my hillside job will probably benefit from tracks and I would like to have the tracks for future versatility. It is tempting though when you see how cheap the wheel machines are.

Thanks again!
 

SMLWinds

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Jul 28, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Tappahannock, VA
One more thing on the new vs. used. How well do these machines hold their value? If they hold their value well, then I will probably go with a new machine. I just don't want to buy a 70K machine, but 250 hours on it over a few years, and then sell it for 20K in near new condition. If I could sell that machine with low hours for 50K then it is probably worth buying the new machine since my investment is preserved. (in truth, I almost never sell anything so it will be with me for life...I just like to know that I haven't lost massive amounts of money in equity!)
 

Digdeep

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Mar 6, 2007
Messages
704
Location
Wisconsin
Another option might be to look for a certified used machine from a dealer instead of machinery trader or an auction. Many dealers offers used units that they have gone through and are willing to offer some warranty. I know that my local Cat dealer advertises their Certified Used machines heavily.

A vertical lift machine will usually offer you about another foot of reach at dump height although a radial will load a truck too.
 

Swannny

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Jan 9, 2012
Messages
274
Location
USA
A vertical lift machine will usually offer you about another foot of reach at dump height although a radial will load a truck too.

Looks like Takeuchi's TL130 (radial) reach is one inch less than Bobcat's T190 (vertical) at full height, while it's bucket pin is one inch higher than Bobcat's at full height.
 

Swannny

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
274
Location
USA
One more thing on the new vs. used. How well do these machines hold their value? If they hold their value well, then I will probably go with a new machine. I just don't want to buy a 70K machine, but 250 hours on it over a few years, and then sell it for 20K in near new condition. If I could sell that machine with low hours for 50K then it is probably worth buying the new machine since my investment is preserved. (in truth, I almost never sell anything so it will be with me for life...I just like to know that I haven't lost massive amounts of money in equity!)

A four to five year old track machine with between three and four digit hours can typically bring around 50 cents on the dollar of new cost, but there are many variables. Loaded machines generally bring more than open cab. If you're concerned about depreciation and have mechanical abilities or know someone that does, best to not buy new.
 

popsiclepete

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Apr 1, 2012
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104
Location
Saskatchewan, Canada
Occupation
Mechanical Contractor
I too was in the same predicament this spring, after looking for a good used unit with low hours in the 2 to 3 year old range and not finding what I thought was good bang for the buck, I decided to go with a new radial lift tire model.
The one point that liked with radial lift vs the vertical it the reach for loading pallets at truck height and the better visibility out the rear, not to mention fewer moving parts to grease and wear.
The cost of tracks to replace and the lack of traction for snow snow removal and the initial cost of the machine led me to by a wheeled unit.
I picked up a new wheeled radial lift machine with warranty for the about the same price as a used track machine with vertical lift.
Much like you after about 5 years I'll be lucky to have 1000 hours. Maybe when I die they could bury me in it. Lol
 

durallymax

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Jun 10, 2011
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666
Location
Wi
For dirt work, landscaping, grading etc a track machine is best. Wheeled machines have their place as well though, they are not just a poor mans options. There are applications, like ours, where a wheeled machine excels. Lift and carry type operations, working on concrete all day etc. Places where you need to be able to actually skid, have a good ride and run high speeds without much wear. Track machines are expensive to keep running and wear much faster than wheeled machines. They cost more up front too. IMO you buy a track machine because you need one, not just because you can. If you are doing dirt work you will benefit from one, wheeled machines are not hopeless, they can do some dirt work as well, just not as good and they do not float as nice on soft ground nor do they have the traction. THey do have higher speeds and a smoother ride though, not to mention they can be run in barns and hop curbs all day where a track machine would not be happy.

The issue of vertical versus radial has little to do with overall height. The "reach" people are referring to is the reach forward, not up. Its how far forward the cutting edge of the "standard" bucket would be at whats considered max lift/dump. This measurement is from the forward most part of the machine (tires/tracks generally) to the cutting edge. Its an indication of how well you can reach into the center of a truck or trailer at max height. The "vertical" name comes from the near vertical lift path of those booms. They come forward at first but then lift nearly straight up (like a forklift). Radial machines lift in a radius, meaning they come forward until halfway through the lift path, then they start coming back close to the machine. They will reach further at half height than a vertical but will have less reach at the very top. This is why most large capacity machines are vertical lift paths, it keeps the load closer to the machine and allows for larger capacities. The added complexity of a vertical booms requires strength though and they are often much more bulky than a radial boom leading to obstructions of view and such. Lately the newest machines from all OEMs are getting better though. Its said radial machines can be better for digging as many have greater breakout force. They are better for loading at flatbed height as well due to the further reach at that height. We have both vertical and radial boom machines. We used to always have vertical lift machines but got one radial lift machine because it was small and visibility was good. All of the operators liked it better and for its tasks it does okay, it does not load spreaders as full as the vertical machines, but otherwise works fine for what we ask out of it. Most task are carried out with the boom low anyways. It does not do much reaching. You have to decide what your application will need. My opinion is that if you are in doubt, buy a vertical lift. You will be more upset with the poor reach of a comparable radial lift than you might be with the minor disadvantages of a radial lift. Some radial machines like the Tak have surprisingly high reach specs though. A demo is worth more than specs on paper though, the machine with the most reach on paper is not always that impressive in the real world for some reason, even though the specs are supposedly "standard".

Brand always depends on service. Not relying on your machine for income, and not putting a lot of hours on it means service will be less of a priority for you and opens up your options to buying the machine you like best. If you really will not be piling the hours on like you say, any brand will work. We try to put over 1,000hrs per year on ours and I know many others who do over 3,000hrs per year on their farms. I know a lot of people who don't put 300hrs on their machines in a year also. The fewer hours you put on, the less issues you will generally have. Not needing your machine running nonstop to generate your paycheck allows more flexibility as well. Just because you have that flexibility doesn't mean you want to deal with a junk machine though either. As far as new versus used, you take a big hit on a new machine. Theres a lot of low houred machines out there that would probably be just fine. You can find good deals on lease returns. Make sure you price new ones though so you know if you are actually getting a good deal on a used one or not. All of the new machines now have emissions equipment on them. You'll have to decide if this is something that may bother you or not. Many of the machines larger than 75hp will have DEF if they do not already. Machines smaller than that for the most part do not but some may have any combination of EGR, DOC and DPF The DPF has a very long service interval that you probably wont hit, but with the light use your machine will see make sure you work it hard periodically to keep the DPF from loading up if the machine has one.

As you mentioned, a lot of people have their favorite brands for one reason or another. Some are educated reasons, some are regional reasons, some are personal reasons and others are simply just because. Some have their brands they would consider and some have their brands they would not be caught dead in. Personally the people I listen to and give the most credit to are the ones that have their opinion, but have a good reason why they feel the way they do, and have an open mind about other brands and the other brands advantages. Those who had a bad experience with a brand 5-10 years ago and to this day will not try one doesn't show much of an open mind to me. You can always try a machine, but if things like dealer support matter then there can be issues that may keep someone out of a specific brand for many years. Personally I like the Cat machines and have ran them for a little over two years now. Had a 262C that got traded for a 262C2 and now a 262D, a 242B3 that was traded for a 226B3 and another 242B3 that we still have as well. We trade them around 2k hrs. The B3's are simple and reliable with very nice responsive pilot controls. However they are not comfortable to sit in all day, visibility sucks, working on them is so/so and they lack a lot of the nice improvements of newer series. The original C we had was nice to sit in but the EH controls were poor. Visibility was decent and it was okay to work on for the most part. The C2 didn't really change much but the controls were better, maybe the same update can be made to the older C models as well. The D series doesn't look that much different at first (compared with how different a B and C look) but the more you run them and look at them, the more you notice how much has changed. Almost all of it has changed for the better. Cab is much tighter, cleaner, quieter and more refined slightly. The HVAC freezes you out (never had to run it above level 1 yet). The new display is very nice and allows more customization. The high back, heated, cloth air ride seat is very comfy as are the control pods that move with it. The recline function seems odd in a skid steer, but does allow you to fine tune the position a bit. The lumbar is nice. The seat heater switch location is terrible though. Servicability got better for the most part, but it seems like for every one thing they made nice, another thing went backwards. The new boom lock is nice and can be operated by one person without getting in and out multiple times. Having the air drawn through the rear door keeps everything much cleaner around the motor and under the cab. The A/C condensor stays cleaner and is easier to clean being mounted to the rear door. The nicest change IMO though is under the cab. The HVAC is sealed to the cab, so everything under the cab in front of the drive motors is emptyness. The hydraulic lines in the C series were an abortion. The D series was well thought out, the lines are not all criss crossing and laying down in the slop. The tank sits down in the bottom and the valve bodies all sit up behind the cab out of the slop. Everything is sealed off up front from the rear compartment where the engine is. This keeps the junk out by not creating negative pressure under the cab (I would assume). The new boom allows for much better visibility and the new attachment plate can actually be seen from the cab now. The electric quick attach is slow and worries me though. Electrical components and manure do not mix well, this we learned many years ago on the NH machines with the solenoids mounted to the plate to operate the hydraulic ram. The rear end is much taller than many other machines, but the backup camera can provide the best view of any if you choose to get it.

The machines I like the least are probably the CNH machines. We ran NH machines from the beginning until 2012 and they were great, the most recent series was not though. I think they have fixed a lot of the earlier issues, but the overall design still does not impress me. They have been having a lot of issues at low hours too and just seem very "cheap". Some have had good luck though and some swear by them.

Bobcat makes a great machine and if resale matters they are great on that. They have some things I like and Hate but overall if you just went out an bought one with no research you wouldn't be let down. The Deere machines don't seem too bad to me either. Kubota is really picking up marketshare in the CTL scene. Lots of nice features, and lots of reliable parts. Tak is thought of as the brute force workhorse of CTL's for many people. Terex offers a unique approach also with the ASV machines. JCB/Volvo has their own unique approach as well. Any of these brands will work just fine for you. Go sit in them and drive them around to see which one you like best.

Good luck.
 

k45

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Mar 25, 2009
Messages
148
Location
southern Ohio
From what I've heard, 2-3000 hour track machines are generally due for major overhaul ($$$) of the undercarriage. Of course, it depends on how they have been used and maintained, but I'm not sure you will find real bargains there compared to a wheeled machine.

If you can't do repair work yourself, then access to a good dealer should be a major decision in selecting a brand. Even if you can do the repair work, you will still need good access to parts.

Actually, when I was looking, all of the used machines with attractive prices looked very used...or abused.
 

SMLWinds

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Jul 28, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Tappahannock, VA
Great responses and very, very much appreciated! It is good to know what people say about brands. When I first started looking I liked the Terex machines but steered away from them when the Bobcat and Cat dealers said they didn't even consider Terex competition to them. Now I may go back and reconsider Terex as I though the machines were decent. I have been kicking around Kubota as my leading candidate--they seem to have everything I want at a reasonable price compared to Bobcat and Cat.

I am going to look through the used machines and see what I can find. I keep going back and forth because I think I will get a low hour used machine to avoid the initial drop in value when you drive it off the lot, but all the low hour used machines I have found are so minimally discounted relatively to a new unit. When you factor in that they may have been traded early because they were a lemon, I start to wonder if new isn't the way to go. There is also the issue that if I choose to finance the machine, I can get 0% interest going new while a used machine will cost me more than the sticker price because of interest. I think I just need to do some more research on the used market...anywhere other than machinerytrader.com that I should look? I have talked to some local dealers but they have said that the used equipment market is very strong right now and they have trouble keeping adequate inventory. I guess I feel like you actually get good bang for your buck with new machines but I really didn't want to shell out 60K for the skid steer.

Thanks again for the comments. Any further thoughts are always appreciated!
 

SMLWinds

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Jul 28, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Tappahannock, VA
I am with you K45. The used machines I see are one of 2 things: 1) look pretty new but priced so high that they are barely cheaper than new or 2) priced lower but appear to have been through the war to deserve the low price. Where are the people like myself that buy a machine, baby it, put low hours on it, and then just decide to sell for some reason???

That certain gets me toward thinking that I should just bite the bullet, get a new one, and have it for life. It will probably take me more than a decade to get the hours that most companies throw on them in a year. When I start to look at it as a long term investment and keep in mind I can write it off my taxes which gives me just under a 40% discount to start with, it seems more logical.
 

durallymax

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Jun 10, 2011
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666
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The used market is pretty hot right now. The best thing to do is talk to dealers so they know you are interested. Find out what they do with their used machines also. Many dump them on wholesalers and used lots and do not actually keep them for themselves. Talk to those places also. The good deals don't get listed. You need to be one of the guys they call when they have something "coming in". The prices listed online are not always a good representation of the costs of machines. New machines sometimes have special programs and incentives that make them cheaper than used machines.

If you are looking at the newest models and buying a new machine, the improvements in operator comfort across many brands in the past 5 years or so have been substantial. This may or may not matter to you.
 
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Swannny

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Jan 9, 2012
Messages
274
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USA
You could contact Gerald - he's a good guy to deal with and always has quality low hr. machines. His number is listed at the bottom of his description. Not that far away from you. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-CATERP...214?pt=Skid_Steel_Loaders&hash=item3ce54d9356

Not being in a rush, and getting word out is the key to finding a low hr. loaded machine.

Also - if you decide to buy used, do the research via the serial number and contact the dealer that sold it as they usually performed the service work as well. Talk to the service manager (or visit if possible) to get a feel for the type of service the machine had. Will be helpful to weed out that possible lemon. I'd be willing to go with you as a favor to inspect a used machine (wheel or track) if you find one nearby since you are new to them. I've done it for other folks who have contacted me.
 
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Digdeep

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Mar 6, 2007
Messages
704
Location
Wisconsin
Looks like Takeuchi's TL130 (radial) reach is one inch less than Bobcat's T190 (vertical) at full height, while it's bucket pin is one inch higher than Bobcat's at full height.

Great point. the Takeuchi is an anomaly for a radial lift machine and offers great dump reach.
 

StumpyWally

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Oct 21, 2011
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SMLWinds...I was in your same situation a few years back...I thought I wanted a low-hr CTL, or even a SSL, for my own personal use & property projects, to supplement my small 4wd diesel utility tractor & my used excavator. Long story short, the only used ones I found were beat to death...so I started looking at new.

After some try outs & a lot of spec comparison, I wound up buying a new 2012 Q4 NH L220, with all rubber Solideal OTT's. I almost bought the comparable Case model (it had some +'s & -'s), but I had a much better relationship with my NH dealer & the NH had some +'s of its own (like more breakout), plus the ability to add others that I wanted (like side lights). The 0% financing for new was also a plus. The D model Cats were not available yet in the 60 hp +/- size, or they might have been a contender. As Durallymax has said, the C models that I looked at sucked IMO. But, my NH is not perfect - no brand is - & I urge you to take a look at my improvements in my thread at https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...ments-to-New-Holland-L220-SSL-amp-Attachments.

I would have looked at Tak machines, but dealer availability/support in my area is virtually non-existent. I tried to look at Bobcat, but the Bobcat dealer in my area is worse than awful, completely non-responsive. Besides, I didn't want a machine where all the main pumps were driven by belts (the engine is transverse mounted). I did look quickly at Kubota 75 & 90's (I liked the roll up door), but they were very pricey. I tried to look at ASV/Terex because of the suspended undercarriage & low ground pressure (I have wet & soft conditions), but the cab & creature comforts were primitive.

The machine that really impressed me was the JCB/Volvo so-called new style. The side door entry & spacious cab is outstanding & has no competition. But, in the midst of getting quotes on the JCB unit, they put a hold on selling any until some problems with the single lift arm were worked out. Plus, the JCB dealer & their products are not popular in my area. JCB has since fixed the boom problems (all sizes are now line bored), & the booms have a lifetime warranty. If you usually work alone & have to get in & out of the machine a lot (like I do), I strongly urge to look at JCB. As much as I like my NH & as well as it performs for me, I still dream of that side entry door & cab every time I have to get in & out. Check out this thread https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?16914-JCB-Skid-Steer.

As you will read in that JCB thread, they are not perfect either, despite the easy entry/exit.

So, in the end, you will have to decide what features are most important to you & which ones you can live without - or add later on your own. Let us know what you decide.
 

k45

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Mar 25, 2009
Messages
148
Location
southern Ohio
The machine that really impressed me was the JCB/Volvo so-called new style. The side door entry & spacious cab is outstanding & has no competition.

Of course with the JCB side entry door, you cannot put tracks on the machine :( Well, you can cut the bottom of the door off, or remove it, but think of the muddy mess those tracks will dump inside.

I had a JCB demo unit for a few days and I found it so tippy that I about abandon hope of a skid steer on my hilly terrain. I do find the Deere skid steer with steel tracks a lot more stable.

But, in the midst of getting quotes on the JCB unit, they put a hold on selling any until some problems with the single lift arm were worked out.

My son was shop manager for an outfit that sold and serviced JCB. The reliability of the single arm was not an issue according to him, he only saw one that was damaged and that was from repeatedly ramming rock formations. As you noted, the arm is lifetime warranted.
 
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