Basic Mini Excavator Questions

I am in the market for a mini excavator. I honestly know very little about them and would appreciate some help.

First of all, I will say that I do not do construction for a living and never will. This machine will be used at my home, farm, and rental properties for various tasks. The first need is to excavate a hillside at my home for a retaining wall project. I will then be using it to dig a pool. I will probably use it to get a few stumps up, etc. but overall it will be general miscellaneous use

I have been looking at the compact excavators and would appreciate some guidance. Aside from reach and dig depth, what are the differences I should be looking for when deciding between models? I don't have a specific use like I said above so I am looking for versatility. Within the compact class, do they all dig about equally as well within their reach/depth? Is there a certain horsepower I need? Does horsepower correlate to bucket size I can use? I just need some starting points to narrow down my search.

My next question is new vs. used. I have the means to buy new, but feel silly doing so since I will not be using it very often so chances are I will never wear the machine out. You could argue that I will maintain good value since my machine would have low hours but you could also argue to get a much cheaper machine that even if it has significant hours on it, I will never wear it out.

If I do go with a used machine, how many hours should I tolerate? What is the typical expected lifespan in hours of one of these machines? (I know that will vary) Where is the best place to find used machines? I don't see much on craigslist and the local dealers have a very limited selection. I have found some decent looking machines on machinerytrader.com

Lastly, are there brands I definitely should look for or definitely stay away from? I know everyone will have their favorites and their passions, but are there any agreed upon generalizations about certain brands?

Thanks in advance for your help!

I suggest you get to know a dealer, and then ask some people what their views of the dealer are.....I did all I am saying , but did not do a good enough job on what the dealer really was like. Tony

Have you considered a backhoe. I have both a backhoe and a 6 ton excavator. Unless you have the means to move the excavator around, you will find it gets expensive to move the machine. A backhoe can be driven on the road from place to place. The backhoe also has a loader on the front for moving material around. A backhoe will not outdig an excavator. A backhoe isn't the best machine for anything, but its the best for doing all things. If I could only have one and it was for a farm or hobby person, I would have the backhoe. I have owned ours for 10 years and will never be without one again. It main feature over the excavator is its ability to drive it from one location to another without incurring a float charge. good luck.

muskoka guy said:

Have you considered a backhoe. I have both a backhoe and a 6 ton excavator. Unless you have the means to move the excavator around, you will find it gets expensive to move the machine. A backhoe can be driven on the road from place to place. The backhoe also has a loader on the front for moving material around. A backhoe will not outdig an excavator. A backhoe isn't the best machine for anything, but its the best for doing all things. If I could only have one and it was for a farm or hobby person, I would have the backhoe. I have owned ours for 10 years and will never be without one again. It main feature over the excavator is its ability to drive it from one location to another without incurring a float charge. good luck.

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x2 could not have said it better my self.

Thanks for the comments. The backhoe is not a bad idea. However, it isn't the right machine for the main project I need it for initially. Transportation is a concern but my travel will mostly be around my properties and I have a trailer to tow the excavator. Certainly that was a great thought and I do appreciate it. You are correct that the backhoe is the "jack of all trades," but I am also purchasing a compact track loader so it's versatility is not as necessary. Thanks again for the thoughts--I do appreciate the advice as it is very logical thinking.

I have a small backhoe and a mini excavator for use on the farm. For my uses, the mini is much more capable and safer than the backhoe. BUT most of my serious work is digging trails on steep hillsides.

My mini has the angle dozer blade and that is extremely useful for my work. It beats the backhoe for pushing dirt to the side after it's been loosened up.

Yes, the backhoe is a jack of all trades and, would probably be more useful if mine wasn't so small.

I bought mine based on what I could transport with a 1 ton pickup, if needed. For me, that meant an 8000# machine, the Kubota KX-121-3. On a 14000# gooseneck trailer, it tows very well.

I will agree that the mini will be sold long before the backhoe. The bh is more of a basic necessity, the mini is the better way of doing some things, but more expensive.

K45-Out of curiosity, did you get the Kubota new or used? When I talked to the dealer earlier today he recommended at least a 10K-12K machine in order to be useful for miscellaneous jobs. I think that an 8K like yours would probably be plenty for me. Is there much you can't do with your 8K machine that you could with a 10K or 12K?

The dealer also said he would buy a used excavator but not a used compact track loader...I tend to agree with that assessment at this point. Just like with the CTLs though, I have trouble finding an excavator in decent shape that isn't priced like it is new.

Another question--as far as life expectancy (at least before you have significant problems), I have been told that CTLs usually start to show age with repairs and such around 3K hours. Does the same hold true for excavators? I know variables like how the machine is used, maintenance, etc. factor in. But, what is the typical life expectancy for the average machine? Seems like I see some excavators for sale with 7K or 8K hours on them that still look in good shape. Are the compact excavators made to give you more hours?

I will use the excavator even less than the CTL so I am much more strongly considering a high hour excavator.

I am certainly not an expert but it seems to me that CTLs wear out more than a mini excavator. Most of what a mini does is with hydraulics. All of what a CTL does is with it's undercarriage and hydraulic motors. The undercarriage is a known wear area for a CTL and the design gets a lot of dirt and mud packed in there.

A mini normally sits in one place and the action is with the cylinders, the pins and bushings, and the swing bearing. If they are well greased and well made, they shouldn't wear heavily. So, in my view, a mini should last a lot longer than a CTL if it is taken care of.

As I mentioned, CTLs usually need major undercarriage overhaul at 2-3K hours ($10-15,000 I've heard). AFAIK, rubber tired skid steers don't have that issue although they do seem to get worked and abused.

I bought my KX-121-3 new. It was a 3 year old "left over" with a fair price. The only other one I found was a rental unit (that I rented) but it did not have the angle blade. I really wanted the angle blade (good decision!) and opted for the new machine with a new warranty. I've had it five years now and never needed the warranty.

I spent two years looking for a good deal on a used mini. Even the cat dealer told me two years ago that they had very few available for sale. I eventually found one that an older operator was selling due to retirement. It has 1200 hrs on it and it looks and runs like new. I looked at ones that had 3000 hrs and looked like hell. One of the main things is how the previous owner has maintained it. My excavator came with the manuals with all the oil changes and service intervals recorded. The filters looked new. A poorly maintained piece of equipment and no records be wary. Another thing I would recommend is do the leg work yourself and narrow the search down to only the ones you think are good. Then hire an experienced heavy equipment mechanic to look at it for you. Well worth the cost. Any problems you overlook will become yours as soon as you buy it. What about renting one for the short term to do your initial projects.

What are the differences I should be looking for when deciding between models? Everybody has their fav brand...support for your machine is very helpful. Having a dealer nearby is helpful. I'd personally stay away from a grey market machine (foreign machine that is used). Hard to find specs, nevermind parts.

Is there a certain horsepower I need? Does horsepower correlate to bucket size I can use? That would be yes, with exceptions...generally, it seems engine size is going down on a given weight class, the newer it is, as they employ auto-throttle and better pumps. Plus, the engines are getting better.

My next question is new vs. used. - for farm use, I'd go used. Depreciation will kill you towing it off the dealer lot. I got a 2003 331 Bobcat (cab AC) almost three years ago for 18k. Put on 500hrs with minimal maintenance. I am sure I could get 15k now in my neighborhood. New would be only if I could write off depreciation.

If I do go with a used machine, how many hours should I tolerate? What is the typical expected lifespan in hours of one of these machines? (I know that will vary) Where is the best place to find used machines? I would look at a used machine from 0 - 3000hr range. If maintained, should get to 6000-10000hrs without major issues. I consider tracks, idlers, bushings maintenance items. I'd look locally at what is for sale.

I have a neighbor with a Kubota who is happy with his 2T machine...it gets all that he wants done. Mine is a 4T machine, and it can pull stumps...big ones. Just takes time with a smaller machine. If you are not stacking rock walls with massive boulders, 4T does it all. When I started land clearing I wish I had a 10T-20T machine, but now that it is done, my 4T machine is perfect...can get into tight spots, and is easy to store under cover (8' tall). Lastly, it reasonable easy to maintain.

Consider getting some seat time in one as a poster mentioned. I know wasting money on rent sucks, but it really helped me narrow down what I needed and what a particular weight class could do...
best

A year ago I was in the same position, looking for a mini Ex to use on my properties with no intent to do construction work. Size was a major factor since I wanted a machine I could haul with my dual axle 4T trailer. I settled on a used 3T CAT with 1,300 hours for half the price of new. Parts availablity and a good local dealer were deciding factors. Around my parts heavy equipment dealers are few and far apart. Like others have stated the record care and maintenance are crucial when looking at a used machine. I was lucky to buy mine from a guy that I knew. He kept the machine in top shape and under cover. It also had hydraulic thumb which is invaluable when moving large rocks, stumps or bulky things that don't fit in the bucket. I had considered a backhoe but could not come close to matching the capabilities of the mini Ex at that weight class, in a backhoe I would have been looking at a 8T machine.

Edupstate said:

It also had hydraulic thumb which is invaluable when moving large rocks, stumps or bulky things that don't fit in the bucket.

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^^^^ Yes, very, very useful!

Definitely a thumb. A/C is nice if you live in a hot climate. Some have an extra pivot at the cab which allows you to get tight beside buildings and such. My machine has it and I have found it handy a few times in tight spots. Also nice for ditching. An enclosed cab is nice as it keeps the weather out of the machine, as well as bugs in bug season. Also heat when its cold, and a/c when its hot. As far as buying new, you will take a large hit as soon as you take it off the lot. Probably much more than a rental charge would be.

Great responses! I appreciate it! I definitely am getting the thumb. I also want an enclosed cab for 4 season (comfortable) use. I would really like to find a nice used 4T machine. I think that would be perfect for me. The problem is that I've yet to find one in any kind of reasonable condition that isn't 75-80% of the new purchase price!

As for taking the hit buying new and that being more than the rental charge, I fully agree. However, I freely admit that I hate renting things. For better or worse, I never rent anything I think I will need in the future and can afford to buy. Admittedly, part of this is the fun of owning earth moving equipment.! I do think (as I have had to convince my wife) that since we have properties and are pretty young, that we will definitely get our money out of a mini Ex over the coming years. I always appreciate ideas though!

With some dealers, if you rent first and then purchase, the rental fee can be credited toward the purchase. It's a good way to get actual time on the machine and make sure it's what you want. That's what I did.

Yes, good used machines typically won't be great deals. The seller knows their worth. Consider, however, that with a new machine you get 1) a known history and 2) a warranty. How much is a warranty worth to you? Not that I needed the warranty with my KX.

If I were looking to buy a mini, I would only get one if it was 'like new' or 'pretty new'. This is based upon information I have learned from the rental companies and their take on the repair cost of longer term ownership. One could argue the rental machines are used hard, but all digging is hard work.
I have the TLB 'jack of all trades' but there are quite a few times when it is too big so we rent a mini, but just for those tasks. I can fetch the mini from the rental yard w my pickup which certainly is nice.
From what I learned:
the tracks will become a purchase item at around 2000 hours
the drives for the tracks are next and they can be either expensive and very expensive depending on mfg
the hydraulic system is variable flow, parts cost more, system is a bit more complex and hence repair costs increase
the controls for the hydraulics are electric over hydraulic which reduces reliability over time due to electric low voltage and outdoor environment
many parts are sized to the minimum margin and during regular digging endure quite a bit of relative loading

I have friends that have these machines and I implored them to try and buy as new as they could. They were able to get zero interest loans. The one that didn't ... he wanted to save money and got a nice looking older gray: after many tribulations he sold it and has none and rents.

Please note - this is my opinion and it is the solution I have figured for me. I could certainly understand getting one of these used mini's and then if it broke I could still rent and get a job done. Part of my analysis is I compare this machine to the TLB: No tracks, no drives, no turntable; Mechanical linkage to the throttle and the control valves; Open center hydraulics; I drive it around to local jobs. It is a nice jack of all trades with not so much complexity.

If a mini is very desired by many people, why not buy the machine newer like a dealer demo or brand new, keep it looking good by touching up nicks promptly and covering the plastic and the seat and controls every day, etc etc then sell it at a certain time. Should sell fast with a good price seeing as how everyone wants one (eg very desired). Take that money, add some more, get another new one. This scheme projects a consumption of capital due to sales and replacement costs, but projects zero repair costs. Which means darn good reliability.

Here's my the story of what convinced me to think this way:
we had a rental mini on a steep slope trenching for dry utilities....It had popped a track and the rental serviceman showed us how to put it back on. There was a root in the dirt when we were clocking it around. fyi We didn't get a bill.
Then it started making strange popping sounds in the hydraulics like a relief valve possibly: but it ran fine otherwise. We reported the problem and they said to keep running it as long as it wasn't overheating or stinking or not doing the job. We opened the cover of course it was so compact and we couldn't recognize a thing.
We turned it in at job completion. About a week later I was at the yard and asked what was the story on the machine - gone to auction. Turns out they were aware it needed new tracks and some track rollers were worn as it had popped tracks for some other folks, thats why we weren't billed. They got their last rent on it from me and took it out of the system, never even troubleshot it.

v/r please note: my opinion and I would be open to change my mind.
I would therefore place myself in the 'fear of small detailed complex machines' category.

OceanBob - agree with you about a rental machine and the complications they have added to newer machines (shame they cannot build a simple machine with all the bugs worked out)...had a rental that popped a track, and that was the least of it's problems. Shielding was removed over the years, and a softball rock took out blade hydraulics...thankfully, I was in a cab as it was raining oil. They pretty much let it dissolve and sold it. Wish I took a picture of it...it looked godzilla took it and used it as baseball. Nothing was untouched (scratched and dented everywhere).

I think you can find a good used machine that the owner has taken of...look at RB Auction for what prices they are selling them for (sign up and you can look at historical prices). Have to be careful when looking at auction machines, as they are usually the dregs. Drive around and ask folks with machines where they got theirs etc...usually folks like to chat about their studs....lol

Unless you live close to a dealer, buying new isn't a panacea. Sounds like you won't pile on the hours to make new machine worthwhile, nor be able to write it off. If you don't mind being a grease monkey now and then...

Yep, a cab is sweet. Put some headphones on, crank up AC/DC, turn on the AC or heat and just go...keeps the dirt out of your face when pulling roots and the occasional wayward branch as you bushwhack.

Thanks for the comments. I do have a nice used Mini I was able to find that I am getting a dealer to run the service records on and check over for me. I am also considering new machines. In response to Melli, I will not pile on hours but am definitely going to be able to write this baby off! So, I am getting almost a 40% discount on whatever I buy!