Another 'How much per hour' thread sorry - need updated info from members

joispoi · May 14, 2014

melli said:
You run your business your way -That's what I'm stuck with lol.-...I have no beef with that. It is none of my business.

When I talk of shadows, I am offering my opinion from a customer viewpoint. When someone posts their numbers I am more apt to call them in the first place than one who doesn't. When someone doesn't list their prices, it begs the question, for me anyways, why not? Are they looking to score off me. Call me jaded, but unfortunately, I've witnessed firsthand bs like that. If you're not jaded, you're not in the business. If they're that curious, they'll call.

In a tight market, one might get the competition undercutting you, but that is capitalism for you...money goes where it is efficient (supposedly). However, if I see two places with similar prices, I go with the one that has a track record, and good word of mouth. More often than not, I get odd jobs from neighbors of the place where I am. They are cautious around heavy machinery, so it takes a bit, but I see them chatting with homeowner about what I am doing, how much etc...then they work up the nerve to approach me...lol

OT - one area that really rankles me is lumber stores...I know prices fluctuate, but with today's computerized world, it isn't all that hard to list up-to-date prices online. I spend hours calling all the stores in my hood to put together a price list...or am forced to send emails to all and wait days to get a quote back.

With the few prices posted here, it's pretty clear to me that I'm working in the wrong part of the world.

These are not my prices, but the advertised local prices:
You can hire a late model JCB 3CX with a set of 3 quick attach buckets, fuel and operator (lever puller) for 350 euros per day from one of the bigger hire outfits. A 5 ton excavator with 3 buckets, fuel and operator (lever puller) is about 450 euros per day here. A 26 ton dump truck gets 560 euros a day.

How much would that help your business if you posted your rates next to these numbers? :Banghead

Scrub Puller · May 14, 2014

Yair . . . Interesting joispoi . Can you tell us what country you are in? The conversion rate this morning is I euro=1.37 US dollars so how does the daily rate thing work? that is to say what is considered a normal day . . . eight, ten or twelve hours?

Of course this is another whole can of worms. How are the hours charged?

I will not pay $150.00 an hour for an excavator idling while the operator is on the phone or greasing or ducking into town to get a burger. Generally speaking I pay for working hours only . . . exactly the same as my customers do when I am working hourly rate.

That is to say . . . they get a page from a proper printed log book detailing what the machine was doing, start and stop times and the total for the day.

Cheers.

joispoi · May 14, 2014

Right now, I'm in France.

Last time I exchanged dollars it was at 1.27 usd = 1 euro.....I don't think it was that long ago.

A liter of diesel costs about 1.30 euros per liter. A McDonalds meal costs around 6-8 euros.

The day rate is for an 8 hour day, whether the machine is parked while the operator rolls cigarettes or digging 8 hours straight. A "normal day" would be 8-5 with an hour for lunch with no scheduled breaks in between.

Allgood · May 14, 2014

Scrub Puller said:
Yair . . . Interesting joispoi . Can you tell us what country you are in? The conversion rate this morning is I euro=1.37 US dollars so how does the daily rate thing work? that is to say what is considered a normal day . . . eight, ten or twelve hours?

Of course this is another whole can of worms. How are the hours charged?

I will not pay $150.00 an hour for an excavator idling while the operator is on the phone or greasing or ducking into town to get a burger. Generally speaking I pay for working hours only . . . exactly the same as my customers do when I am working hourly rate.

That is to say . . . they get a page from a proper printed log book detailing what the machine was doing, start and stop times and the total for the day.

Cheers.

Sorry if this looks bad. I'm replying with my phone. About 6 days of heavy rain ALL day is about enough for me, thank you. Anyway, I have a few minutes to reply between doing maintenance and generally complaining.

I can't see the previous order of the equipment I listed, but here are some prices I sent out today. The only difference is that I'm reasonably well known for being an extremely accurate operator as well as an extremely efficient operator who can fly when conditions are right. If you want an average "lever puller" with 30 years of experience of milking the clock for average work, I suggest calling the local labor hall. No insult to union guys, but I was "learned" the union way for almost 10 years. The guys who could really operate left and started their own business.

Anyway, here is what I can stay busy charging:

5 ton track loader with 4n1 bucket = $85/hr
5 1/2 ton mini excavator = $100/hr
10 ton excavator =$125/hr
Single axle dump w/6 1/2 yd bed = $85/hr

I do charge from the time I leave my shop until I get back. I do NOT charge for any breaks, fueling time or greasing time. I figure I'm being paid to work. If it's really, really nasty, I generally negotiate upfront about an hour or two per machine (depending on how nasty) for clean up time. On those nasty jobs, possibly because I address the issue upfront, I've really never had an issue getting the money because I show up with nice clean, working, equipment when I start the job.

Doing my math it seems that fuel cost is getting me a bit. Not to brag, but I get about half my jobs from word of mouth based on my speed and accuracy on my machines. I welcome comments. I think I've proven I don't upset easy.

Scrub Puller · May 14, 2014

Yair . . . its all good Allgood.

One question. I would have thought the operating costs of a five ton track loader would be much higher than for a five and a half ton excavator yet you charge it out at less . . . is there a huge difference in finance costs or is it just an application issue?

Cheers.

Allgood · May 14, 2014

Scrub Puller said:
Yair . . . its all good Allgood.

One question. I would have thought the operating costs of a five ton track loader would be much higher than for a five and a half ton excavator yet you charge it out at less . . . is there a huge difference in finance costs or is it just an application issue?

Cheers.

VERY good question! You and I both know my costs are more for what is basically a 100hp track loader. First, and obviously, I burn two or three times the fuel. Then you KNOW the wear and tear expense for a tracked machine that is always running around is going to cost me more. In another thread I've already commented that with only 700 hours on the machine that I'm not at all happy with the cuts and chunks missing out of the tracks. Since it's only been on clean dirt, I don't see any excuses for the tracks falling apart. I bet there is over 90% of the tread depth left, but either track could snap anytime due to the damage they have. When they go, there goes at least $3500! That's besides all the other quick wearing undercarriage.

The problem is that it appears as if every other guy outside the city has some sort of skid steer and they work them for next to nothing. That is the piece I think I'm underpriced the most on!

CM1995 · May 14, 2014

Don't get me started on CTL undercarriages!:soapbox

Busted another track on a T250 last week, that totals 7 (IIRC) tracks busted in the last 3 years. At $1200 a piece that adds up quickly.

I am rethinking even having a CTL as the cost to operate compared to what it makes per hour is very high compared to a larger metal track dozer or loader.:cool2

In the past I have ran CTL's until the tracks worn down to nothing and replaced them due to no traction. The current problem is busting belts with more than 50% of the tread left. For me it's getting very costly to run a CTL and I haven't even rebuilt the metal part of the undercarriage yet.

Acivil · May 14, 2014

Mini Ex 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
CTL 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
Midi Ex 85-95/HR ""
Padfoot BW124 55-65/HR ""
Tandem/Tri Axle Dump I job cost at 75.00 but I will only run for my own jobs, I don't hire out at that price, if I have a lot to do I let someone else wear their truck out for that rate, while I burn 10% of the fuel, and less that 10% maintenance cost with a mini for the same rate.:idontgetit
700H 100.00-110.00/HR
ZX200LC 155.00-165.00/HR
410G 85.00/HR
Mayco C30HD Concrete Pump- 850.00 per day
Laborer 25.00/HR

I feel like this kind of became a 2 part thread, split between operational transparency, and hourly rates. My opinion on transparency is this:
I like to explain to my customers right up front that their project can work 2 ways if they want me to build it, we can share the risk, and I will do it by the hour which puts a pretty low ceiling on my up side (my ability to make a high margin), or we can agree that I assume all of the risk, which they in turn will have to pay for, and I in turn will have the opportunity to do no more than an adequate job, in the cheapest manner possible, and make a large gross margin, as compensation for the risk I assume. The choice is theirs, and the stress for me is a different kind depending on which path they choose, but I always make clear that they can expect me to leave with more money than I showed up with, and that they should expect no less. If a potential client cannot understand and accept that my professional mission is to build interesting stuff, and make as large of a pile of money (but be fair) as possible in the process, they don't need to become an actual client. I don't care if my competition undercuts me, that's their business, but I don't play this game to beat people (anymore), I play this game for the frog skins.

CM1995 · May 14, 2014

I agree Acivil. I always price a hard bid job higher than what it will take to do it as I am assuming the risk of the customer to complete the job. Risk is a valuable commodity that has monetary value - it's the basis of the insurance industry.

If a customer wants a hard bid for a job then they are placating the risk onto me to complete the job for a set price - unforeseen circumstances not with standing and should be spelling out in the contract.

I don't need the practice, I am in it to make a buck and provide my services for a reasonable exchange of money.

We're real close in rates. I charge $90 an hour for a 420D IT and $90 for a CS533E compactor. Labor is charged at $30, increased from $25 just a few months ago.

Don't have a concrete pump so no comment.:tong

JBGASH · May 14, 2014

Acivil, I agree with you completely, my hourly rates are minimums that I use in bidding a job and also use when asked what the hourly rates are for a certain piece of equipment in my fleet. I make a lot more money (most of the time) when I take all the risk to get the job done for a set amount no matter how long it takes. The customer is not alarmed when he sees my guys taking a break or something similar; time is not an issue to them at that point.

Acivil said:
Mini Ex 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
CTL 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
Midi Ex 85-95/HR ""
Padfoot BW124 55-65/HR ""
Tandem/Tri Axle Dump I job cost at 75.00 but I will only run for my own jobs, I don't hire out at that price, if I have a lot to do I let someone else wear their truck out for that rate, while I burn 10% of the fuel, and less that 10% maintenance cost with a mini for the same rate.:idontgetit
700H 100.00-110.00/HR
ZX200LC 155.00-165.00/HR
410G 85.00/HR
Mayco C30HD Concrete Pump- 850.00 per day
Laborer 25.00/HR

I feel like this kind of became a 2 part thread, split between operational transparency, and hourly rates. My opinion on transparency is this:
I like to explain to my customers right up front that their project can work 2 ways if they want me to build it, we can share the risk, and I will do it by the hour which puts a pretty low ceiling on my up side (my ability to make a high margin), or we can agree that I assume all of the risk, which they in turn will have to pay for, and I in turn will have the opportunity to do no more than an adequate job, in the cheapest manner possible, and make a large gross margin, as compensation for the risk I assume. The choice is theirs, and the stress for me is a different kind depending on which path they choose, but I always make clear that they can expect me to leave with more money than I showed up with, and that they should expect no less. If a potential client cannot understand and accept that my professional mission is to build interesting stuff, and make as large of a pile of money (but be fair) as possible in the process, they don't need to become an actual client. I don't care if my competition undercuts me, that's their business, but I don't play this game to beat people (anymore), I play this game for the frog skins.

cdm123 · May 15, 2014

Acivil said:
Mini Ex 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
CTL 75.00-85.00/HR depending on work load.
Midi Ex 85-95/HR ""
Padfoot BW124 55-65/HR ""
Tandem/Tri Axle Dump I job cost at 75.00 but I will only run for my own jobs, I don't hire out at that price, if I have a lot to do I let someone else wear their truck out for that rate, while I burn 10% of the fuel, and less that 10% maintenance cost with a mini for the same rate.:idontgetit
700H 100.00-110.00/HR
ZX200LC 155.00-165.00/HR
410G 85.00/HR
Mayco C30HD Concrete Pump- 850.00 per day
Laborer 25.00/HR

I feel like this kind of became a 2 part thread, split between operational transparency, and hourly rates. My opinion on transparency is this:
I like to explain to my customers right up front that their project can work 2 ways if they want me to build it, we can share the risk, and I will do it by the hour which puts a pretty low ceiling on my up side (my ability to make a high margin), or we can agree that I assume all of the risk, which they in turn will have to pay for, and I in turn will have the opportunity to do no more than an adequate job, in the cheapest manner possible, and make a large gross margin, as compensation for the risk I assume. The choice is theirs, and the stress for me is a different kind depending on which path they choose, but I always make clear that they can expect me to leave with more money than I showed up with, and that they should expect no less. If a potential client cannot understand and accept that my professional mission is to build interesting stuff, and make as large of a pile of money (but be fair) as possible in the process, they don't need to become an actual client. I don't care if my competition undercuts me, that's their business, but I don't play this game to beat people (anymore), I play this game for the frog skins.

I explain that for a firm price I will take my estimate and add at least 25% be cause I have no xray vision and am out to make some money they generally go for hourly. Any time I have given a firm price they try to add a few extras in lol.

hmearth · May 17, 2014

Looking at those prices you be lucky to keep operating

JBGASH · May 17, 2014

hmearth said:
Looking at those prices you be lucky to keep operating

Hmearth, what are your rates?

CM1995 · May 17, 2014

Looking at those prices you be lucky to keep operating

Sigh..

Just like comparing wages from different areas and different countries, comparing rates is the same. It's like asking, how much does a car cost?

:cool2

JDOFMEMI · May 18, 2014

Quite a spread in rates across this land. The labor portion of the rate is probably one of the biggest differences in the cost. I suspect in the cheaper parts of the country an operator costs his employer maybe $15 per hour, and in the higher priced areas it may be over $85 per hr.

That difference is just the beginning, as the areas labor rate influences the cost of repairs, fuel, parts, and other operating costs. The machine may cost close to the same from one place to another, but it is still influenced by the local labor rate, as the dealer has to pay more or less depending on the local rates, so their mark up will change accordingly.

Even fuel and oils will vary, both from the local labor and the local tax codes.

With that said, one of the biggest factors in operating cost is the hours of use. Ownership costs continue at the same rate per year whether you work the machine 500 hours or 3,000 hours. I do not mean depreciation, as that goes along with the hours of use, but the fixed costs of ownership items.

These are just some of the differences on the cost side, then there are the local competitive reasons for rates.

If there is little competition compared to the work available, it may be easy to get a good rate. In a saturated market, even with a lot of work available it is difficult to get a rate much higher than the lowest cost offered.

Some of us can afford to hold out for their requested rate, and some of us get in positions where they have to take work at nearly any price to keep turning dollars. Too many in that position will spoil the market for the rest.
Sometimes the journey from one side of that equation is self inflicted, and sometimes you get drug along for the ride due to things outside of your control, and this can be in either direction.

KSSS · May 18, 2014

Reference the comments on the CTL's and costs associated with them. I think when your doing bidded work that requires a lot of work that relates to a CTL's strengths you can come out very well, at least I do. So well in fact that that I am making twice the hourly rate (when you do the math) compared to what I bid. The fact at least here is that the machines are capable of an incredible amount of productivity. Since there are not many CTL's in this area, I can bid as if the CTL does not exist, utilize the CTL and make excellent money. However when your working by the hour many advantages are lost. The excellent productivity works against you, I run at $95 an hour, the productivity of the machine is worth more than that, but getting more than that is difficult. The profit margin is a lot tighter, tighter than I would like it to be when I do work by the hour as a result I try not to work the CTL hourly and utilize the wheeled machine unless it simply is the only answer to do the job.

My numbers are very close to Acivil's except the labor which I am at $45.

hmearth · May 19, 2014

Hrly rate is a hard topic to talk about I find it highly personal but I will say I have a Deere 329d, 6 ton ECX and a old CH mack and trouble couping with the work in front of me with the rates I see you boy talk about I go fishing saying that the competition in Australia is different I talk to guys who do work for nothing and struggle to scratch it up it depends on if you know what you are doing or not, most of the time the people payyou need to be told what they want or how to do it.
In the USA I'm guessing you boys have a lot of guys running around under cutting and taking short cuts I feel for you honest guys.
End of the day doesn't matter how much you make as long as your lease payments are made money in the pocket (and a happy wife)

CM1995 · May 19, 2014

JDOFMEMI said:
Quite a spread in rates across this land. The labor portion of the rate is probably one of the biggest differences in the cost. I suspect in the cheaper parts of the country an operator costs his employer maybe $15 per hour, and in the higher priced areas it may be over $85 per hr.

True Jerry. Also fuel varies quite a bit as well. I ordered 500 gals of off-road for $3.42 per gallon - delivered, couple of weeks ago. Last on-road I bought at a station was $3.69/gallon.

Also local/state tax differences - income, sales, property, etc vary quite a bit, everyone seems to forget that one.

Equip Junkie · Sep 10, 2014

CTL 120/hr
Tandem dump 110/hr
Delivery: 100/hr
Man hours: 35/hr

I don't charge extra for any attachments accept the mulcher which is 170/hr. If there are lots of rocks in the ground and the customer wants me to stir the chips in the ground, then they get to pay for damaged teeth.

A lot of guys in this area charge in the 85/hr range, but there are lots of hidden costs they don't say. For example. They charge a day rate for each implement they bring($250/day). They charge for the truck and trailer separately and for every hour it sits on the job regardless of it being used or not. Locally it is common to charge a rate per hole augered instead of by the hour. Three years ago there was very little competition, but that has changed. I have seen at least 4 new Skid steer companies start up in the last year alone. Some have really undercut. One guy advertised at 65/hour for a 70hp CTL. If I had to hire a proficient operator, it would cost me a min of 25-30/hour or I wouldn't be able to find one due to the elevated wages from the Oil industry in Alberta. I raised my prices this year a little due to the increase in fuel costs. Companies that work in the Oil industry are normally higher in price than those of us that don't. It is an interesting market to say the least.

Shimmy1 · Sep 10, 2014

CTL $100
304 CCR $105
312B L $125
CX210 $160 concrete work $185
3 yd loader $125
Cat Challenger and 18 yd pan $240
Man labor $50
Mobilization 0-10 mi $50 10-20 $75 over 20 $4/mi

Another 'How much per hour' thread *sorry* - need updated info from members

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Another 'How much per hour' thread sorry - need updated info from members