On board fire extinguisher?

Nige said:

see my comments above regarding cleaning out the engine compartment daily to remove accumulated trash. Do you....?

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Actually I do. When I bought my 277c it had been used mowing brush, there were leaves, clippings and small branches EVERYWHERE! I just find it hard to believe that all of the fires are caused by brush/debris in the engine compartment?! Maybe so????


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If you're not convinced after hearing Scrub's tales of bush clearing in Oz, nothing will convince you about the root cause of engine bay fires.

Sounds like you've dealt with your share of fire... Thanks a bunch for the water filled propane tank suggestion. I'm feeling my way into this. We get very dry after June, maybe even earlier this year, so all clearing work stops because of risk of runaway brush fires sparked by either cutting blades or even contact with hot exhaust pipes underneath.

My real focus has been on dealing with an onboard fire on the skid itself which is a new machine for me. I think doing a lot of daily debris removals and keeping an eye on hydraulic leaks the muffler and engine block will prevent a lot.

Dickeyjoe said:

Sounds like you've dealt with your share of fire.

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Not as many as Scrub, that's for sure.

Scrub Puller said:

Yair . . . Dickeyjoe. As I mentioned up thread we used to deal with fires on a daily basis and I will say again that nothing beats good old water for suppressing fires that start from trash build up.

The only place that should get hot enough to ignite should be around the exhaust and then, depending on airflow within the enclosure you could end up with multiple fires in different parts of the machine.

As others have stated a pressure tank could be mounted on the roof with guarding. Once you have a fire you have to wet the whole machine down . . . as soon as that fan starts you are just as likely to smell smoke again . . . most extinguishers are one hit wonders, got another one on hand?

As soon as you are aware of smoke get the revs off (the fan stokes the fire) and shut the machine down as soon as possible . . . probably not all that easy in these days of A/C, a fire could be well alight before you were aware of the smell.

I can't imagine with the sort of jobs you would be doing you would be too far from you ute/pickup and when I am stoking fires I always flood the belly-gaurds of the dozer with water morning and lunch time have a drum of water and pump handy on the back of the truck.

You could do the same, as I have mentioned propane tanks are good. A hundred pound one two thirds filled with water and pressurised with air through a Schreider valve would be ideal . . . fitted with a gauge to check pressure daily and twenty feet of delivery hose.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

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I have to agree with Scrubpuller I'm a Volunteer Firefighter and have been to several vehicle and equipment fires in the past and nothing beats water. Many years ago we responded to a track loader on fire that was being used to clear brush or something like that it had caught fire in the belly pan and despite several attempts at using powder fire extinguishers it kept burning. Our pumper at the time only had a 500 u.s. gallon tank on it and we had to fill it up three times to cool it down. The Fire Department I currently belong to has a quad with a 25 gallon sprayer tank and a little gasoline powered pump on it that we use for fighting grass and brush fires, something like that could be really handy even if it looks a little odd mounted on top of your cab but it's the only unused space I can think of on a skid-steer.

Nige said:

20lb dry powder would be your best bet IMHO. Finding somewhere to mount it not so easy .......

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Would you go that way or use AFFF. All the fire suppression systems I've seen have been AFFF, except for the engine executioner systems fitted to fuel tankers.
Either way, you definitely want a hand held Dry Chemical on board with you.
If you have a dry chem extinguisher of any sort, part of your maintenance must include turning the extinguisher upside down and agitating on a regular basis to prevent the powder packing tight through vibration. Many a dry chem has failed to work for this reason.
You're dead right though, no spare room on a skid steer.

Additionally to giving the extinguisher a good shake to get the powder moving on a regular basis I would also recommend removing the screw top and checking that the compressed gas cylinder inside has not unscrewed itself and is lying in the powder ............ some would say that by doing that you're voiding the test certificate, I would reply that I want the best chance of the extinguisher to work when I really need it.

Some good ideas on fire extinguishers above.
Also keep in mind the best/recommended time to do the daily cleaning of the engine compartment is NOT before starting operations, but immediately AFTER shutting the machine down. While the engine is running, there is often enough air flow to keep the debris cool enough to not ignite. However 15-30 minutes after shutting down, the heat in the engine/exhaust will heat soak the debris high enough to ignite it. Have seen many machines that have burned after they have been worked and everyone has left for the day, only to be called later.
Also, make sure you know both ways out of your machine in an emergency, even if the loader arms are blocking the door and the engine is dead from fire or other reasons.
The loader can be lowered on all Cat machines without the engine running if you know how to do it. That will keep you from having to use the back window and crawling over the engine, if it really is on fire.

I would stay away from a ABC extinguisher because they are abrasive and a big mess when they go off. Ideally a water can would work especially with foam mixed into it because you can refill it and add foam easily (or use kitchen soap) but they are typically 2.5 gallons so mounting and storing it would be a pain on such a small machine. If it was up to me and my machine I would probably go with a 5 gallon rectangular aluminum tank like from northern tool mounted to the roof and pressurize it, then run with metal tubing and misting tips inside the engine compartment that can be discharged from within the cab. this would be safer for the operator and keeping the door closed will limit oxygen to the fire helping suppress it. another option that would work well and is small enough to mount inside the cab would be haltron which is similar to an ABC extinguisher but its a "clean agent" extinguisher so it doesn't leave a mess and won't damage electronics or the engine like an ABC could. I would also avoid a CO2 extinguisher because of the size and they usually only discharge for 25 seconds which is okay but not great if you have a deep seated fire like you would in mulch.

We have 2.5 gallon water fire extinguishers on everything in addition to any factory installed ABC extinguishers. I've had to use a water cannon 3 times now, both times the fire started on the machine i was able to get it under control and put it out. I haven't had to deal with any fires that have become oil fed yet, but i would think that a foaming agent in a water cannon would be better than an ABC for that too. Foam is what the professionals use on oil fed fires anyways.

Fighting a petroleum based fire with foam takes some special training as it usually has to be floated on to the fire in order to smother and extinguish it. There are also Class A type foams for fighting fires in wildland applications as well structural type fires like house fires. The best thing about using water to extinguish heavy equipment fires is that the water dissipates the heat where as the dry chemical and C02 does not, it is highly advisable not to try and tackle a vehicle fire if it is fully involved as the smoke can very quickly overcome a person not properly equipped with proper turnout gear and an SCBA.
However back on topic there are foam products on the market made for home owners that come in containers with their own garden hose fittings and work much like a fertilizer sprayer that you use on your lawn. Ok now I found it though I recall coming across some companies that offer a kit of sorts that you can connect to a garden hose or 1" or 1.5" fire hose that comes with the eductor, special foam nozzle, and a container full of foam concentrate.

http://www.scottyfire.com/equipment/applicator-equipment/8-gpm-foam-kit.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_fighting_foam

The first requirement for fires on equipment is a detailed insurance policy. Loss of equipment due to fire is a risk better carried by someone else. On the flip side of that, I have had a few machines in fleets where we were hoping a POS burned to total loss status.

I've looked in a few skid steers and agree with all that there is no room to put the supply of retardant. One could put brackets on the outside back of the engine bay door and mount a tank there but I don't recall seeing many skid steers that didn't have damage due to backing into something. No matter which type of retardant you are using, it all has a cost and you don't want it just getting dropped on the ground because you backed into a tree. The other thing I've seen is that all the retardants I know of are corrosive to wiring. You spray that stuff through out your machine and you better get that stuff washed out before very long or you will be fighting electronic gremlins for the rest of the machine life.

Probably the two best fire fighting tools are what we call a **** can and a standard number two shovel. The can holds five gallons of water, has back pack straps so you can carry them fairly easy and still use your hands and lastly a hose hooks to the bottom of the can and has a hand pump on the end. In most all instances dirt is the best and cheapest fire retardant there is. The supply is unlimited and said number two shovel the fastest way to apply. Keep them close to where you are working and you should have an even chance of saving your machine. I've seen a lot more fires put out with dirt and water than any of the commercial suppression systems.

On my 272c, I mounted an extinguisher in the back door and in the cab. I can't remember where I mounted the in-cab one (I sold it) but the one at the rear fit nicely in rear door using two bolts and metal extinguisher bracket.

On my bobcat, I have an extinguisher in the cab and a spare in a holster. I've had a machine fire. Something melted a hole in the plastic fuel tank when I was mulching. The fuel sloshed around, caught fire, and two extinguishers wouldn't put it out. I worked like crazy to get the bolts out of the cab, lift the cab, and dumped my entire cooler's water into the machine smothering the fire. I was lucky that I was near my vehicle when I smelled something like burnt plastic and I was equally lucky that the fire hadn't yet flashed over when I was starting to look for problems.

I know you didn't specifically ask but here's some free advice;

The machine was practically new. I have been mulching for a dozen years and always keep my machine debris-free. We still don't know what got hot or how something got into the machine. Nothing of note was found during the fuel tank replacement.
I did cover the tank with a fire-resistant welder's blanket and sealed up as many areas as I could.
Cat pulls a lot of air through the inside of the machine. Sealing up the holes will help but then you have to watch for debris getting pulled onto the turbo or muffler or other hot areas. Dry brush, leaves, sticks, etc., will get even more dry and even if there isn't a spark, the gasses that are emitted as they "cook" can ignite or cause the debris to smolder which then provides an ignition source for other combustibles.

I'm scared every time I'm mulching when it's dry and I spend an inordinate amount of time, each day, cleaning out my machine. Buy and use any "debris" kits that CAT offers BEFORE mulching and it will help but you will still need to find and seal up holes.