Dumb farmer needs some pull scraper operation pointers

I have an Old CAT 90 scraper that has been converted to hyd. Am pulling it with a TD25C. The last heavy scraper operation I was around was a couple of D8's with LeTourneau cable scrapers in the late 60's. Dad would run another D8 pusher to help them load when they were working for us. Trying to build a pond. Have at least 4 types of material to work with. 8 to 10ft. of blow sand on top of 6' of gray clay on top of 6' of dry liver mud on top of red shale/soft sandstone. Plan is to strip off the sand and stockpile the clay to use as liner later. Plan to strip down to a solid shale base and then seal up the sides/ dam face with the clay. Scraper has center "bit" I would call it on the cutting edge. I can drop the bowl in anywhere and cut/load until the bowl is 3/4 full, then I run out of traction. The material doesn't seem to "boil" into the bowl like I thought it should. Is it just a power/traction thing? I know when I have pulled a small 7yd ag scraper with my 4WD farm tractor I either boiled it over the sides or pulled the tongue in two. Where does the apron need to be set when loading? Minium/maxium cutting depths? When I unload I drop the cutting edge down to about 6" off the ground, raise the apron, and spread/ eject across the fill. I'm a one man show right now, so would need to hire an operator if push filling would speed things up greatly. Have a 300 hp 4wd tractor with dozer blade to push. Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks Dirt

I think you have it figured out. If the turn is short and you have more time than money you may be better off with 3/4 bowl. The 90 is a big scraper, loading without a push would be tough. Loading downhill helps if it is possible to cut one end first and work downhill into it.

Hey Dirt, sound like you are earth rich! nice having the different materials to use after. I agree with old iron you may be getting your moneys worth. Heading down hill even slightly is a help and keeping an even cut but with trying to keep your materials separate that could get challenging. Are you running out of traction while still in the sand? You might experiment with getting down to some stiffer ground at the end of the run without contaminating whats in the load to much, to fill that last bit. When I worked with scrapers they were paddles or push pulls you may be doing good to get 3/4 full. The equipment you have to use, and the site your in are the bosses best of luck getting er done.

It helps to pump the bowl when loading sand. Sometimes. Just gouge her down till you're about to spin or stall out then lift the bowl to get your momentum back. Repeat as needed

Yair . . . Rowdy16

It helps to pump the bowl when loading sand. Sometimes. Just gouge her down till you're about to spin or stall out then lift the bowl to get your momentum back. Repeat as needed

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Yes mate, somebody actually said it . . . and in loose ripped dirt. Apron wide, bog her in to the depth of the rip, a couple of pumps and out of there.

It might look like crap until you clean the floor up but I can't tell you how frustrated I get with watching some clown take four or five inch cuts and when I ask why he doesn't rip I get told it makes it hard to load and you have to keep it neat. . . grrrr.

It's horses for courses of course I am talking about excavating stock tanks and mud pits, not much length to load in once you get down a bit. I have actually seen blokes take multiple passes across the bottom to end up with a load. I'm not talking about cleaning up a floor that was how they bloody work.

Cheers.

Hi Dirt Poor,
Part of the problem is the cat 90 scraper. The old Cat pull scrapers are extremely hard mouthed, meaning that the cutting edge is blunt. When you talked about your dad and LeTourneau scrapers they could be loaded with a smaller dozer, comparing size for size. The main thing to look at is how far the cutting edge is sticking down. If there is some way to get the stinger (center section) to be about 6" lower than the rest of the edge, by welding an extension on the stinger and keeping the router bits from dragging in the ground you should be able to boil the dirt and over fill the scraper. When my dad ran LeTourneau scrapers he got some special cutting edges from a steel mill and worked real good the one thing to watch is not to go full guns when getting close to rock because you could bend the frog of the scraper. If you look in the Wabco scrapers at work in this forum post #852 you can see what in mean. This is on a elevating scraper but he did the same on the two pull scrapers he had and one was matted to a D8-K. This system lets a person set up a borrow pit or cut area where you can stager you cuts so when you come for the next pass you have a 8 to 12" cut and notdrages the sides.

Good luck, Maurice

Thanks guys. I actually did the pump loading and it worked but I thought I would go straight to scraper hell if my floor wasn't smooth. Maurice thanks for the tip about the stinger. Mine is a little lower but not 6". Does anyone have have a suggestion where to go for a longer stinger? Now that I have used it I'm not in love with this 90. The pivot point for the apron is to high so when you close the apron the edge is moving toward the rear instead of dropping relatively straight down as the newer machines do. Lose a lot of sand when one side has a chunk of clay keeping it from swinging back. Thanks again, Dirt

Yair . . . dirtpoor. I just love this quote of yours . . . .

I thought I would go straight to scraper hell if my floor wasn't smooth.

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Seems a lot of folks think that way . . . but with a crawler drawn scraper (in my opinion) it isn't necessarily so. Operating a suitably matched drawn scraper/crawler tractor combination bares little resemblance to operating a motor scraper (twin powered or otherwise).

With the drawn scraper the tractor can climb batters and scramble on and off off banks pretty much any where you want . . . . and yet you see operators running haul roads as if they were on a 621 or something.

The name of the game is hogging dirt and in the Western Queensland country every floor has be ripped and sometimes cross ripped. As I mentioned its a case of getting in there with a wide open mouth a couple of pumps, apron into float and out of there heading straight for the closest corner . . . the pretty stuff can come at the end.

Cheers.

Cat has frost bits-that will work fine. When it gets worn down-flip it.

Catken, Would you possibly have a PN for the frost bit. The HD stinger is 4T2895MT, 1.13x16.00x60.25, the same as some of the 621s. I can't seem to find a listing for a frost bit. Thanks, Dirt

You should be able to get to the Cat Dealer and ask for a center frost bit-or extended bit. We always call it a frost bit. All the parts guys I dealt with new it. Even it your using after market
bits they should no.

No. 90 was built to be pulled by a D9. I ran into same problem when I tried to put a No. 80 Cat behind a D7. Not enough weight up front.

What greg said... btw nice to see you around greg. I'd prolly just be happy getting what I could in the 90, a push tractor will not add enough to be cost effective and if you get wet conditions, with a overloaded dozer it might get hard to get around.

Push Cat would get him loaded stumpjumper83. Next problem is if he has to pull any steep grades he will run out of traction trying to pull that much load. I am not sure of weight of a Cat N0.90 and the capacity but a Cat No. 80 is close to 80,000 pounds loaded. The width of cut of the pull type pans is also designed to be very close to the width of the track on the tractor pulling it too.

Cut width was why I went with a 90. I have never run a 9 so I can't compare it to the 25. The 25 out works any of the oval track 8s I've run. Haven't had any trouble pulling grade yet . It definitely knows it's back there though. Dirt

dirtpoor said:

Thanks guys. I actually did the pump loading and it worked but I thought I would go straight to scraper hell if my floor wasn't smooth. Maurice thanks for the tip about the stinger. Mine is a little lower but not 6". Does anyone have have a suggestion where to go for a longer stinger? Now that I have used it I'm not in love with this 90. The pivot point for the apron is to high so when you close the apron the edge is moving toward the rear instead of dropping relatively straight down as the newer machines do. Lose a lot of sand when one side has a chunk of clay keeping it from swinging back. Thanks again, Dirt

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Dirtpoor, Man I would love to be doing what you are doing, running a tractor scraper is one of my favorite things to do!! I know what your saying about loosing material from under the apron! Some times when your loading clay type or chunky materials if you stop when you as full as your going to get and simply back up a few feet while working (pumping) the apron up and down until it will shut you wont loose 1/3 of your load while rattling along towards the fill. We have used this method on several occasions in chunky or sticky material with good success. Also, if your trips are short and your trip time is say 6 or 7 minutes or less and you have a man to push you with your big tractor it should greatly increase your production by cutting down on your load time and filling you with another 4 or 5 yards/ trip witch BTW the 25C should have no trouble handling in good ground!! Good luck. Chum..

Having used cable operated scrapers in yrs gone by I allways used to keep the apron just low enough so that it did not doze material in front of it, that way as the dirt boils up it sits on the apron thus giving it weight to close it. Loose sandy material is always hard to load with an open bowl, all u can do is get as much as u can in give it a couple of pumps and then go, the time spent trying to get a heaped load is not worth the extra wear n tear and extra fuel burnt. We used to tow 8/11 yds behind TD 15Cs and Cat 463, cat 470 and cat 80 behind TD 25Bs. A D9G was 385 hp, 25C @285hp and probably 8 or 10 ton difference in weight. Always used to like scoop work, only down side was when u broke a rope that always took the fun out of it.

Have a Dresser 515C wheel loader. One of guys that bow hunts on me asked if he could help me do something. Sure. Climb in the loader and give me a push. The 25 could get a fair load by it's self but it was a struggle unless the dirt was perfect. Now full loads . Loader operator found out he could raise the bucket once he was under the push block and gain more traction. Gotta love guys like that. Dirt

Well that'll be one way to destroy a loader bucket, don't think they were ever designed
with that in mind. May be if the bucket was taken off and u made up some sort of push block would be easier on it. Just my 2 cents worth.

R.D. has a point, at least keep the loader bucket clear full of dirt. That should help cushion the impact load to the back of the bucket and put it on the dirt itself. Chum..