I am coming up on my three year mark of being out on my own. I am a one man show trying to build my business into my future. In May of 2012 I was working for a certain swimming pool builder who was basically a consultant and not a true pool builder. The builder would regularly use me along with other subs and have the home owner pay us direct. The pool builder did this for home owners and collected a fee for "overseeing" the project. The pool builder was and still is a hustler, but very successful by throwing legitimate builders under the bus. I did well over 50 excavations for this builder. The builder always bragged to customers about me. Long story short (too late) the builder wanted me to lie to a home owner about how many loads were hauled off their property to gain more profit and we butted heads. I had choice words telling the builder to get another excavator. So I turned my invoices in for a total of four jobs and the builder refused my pay and told the home owners not to pay me, claiming bogus back charges. I filed liens on all four properties, which did nothing and expired. The builder claimed to throw me in jail, her husband sent me threatening messages, threatened the D.O.T. and my laborers with deportation. Sent me several huge lawyer packets claiming back charges from other subs and cracked driveways and anything else that would trump my payment. No invoices for these back charges, just false tactics really. The lawyer told me in the letter to not contact the home owners. I have tried to call the homeowners who owe me. They won't answer and a lawyer letter from the builder usually follows that. I have tried maybe five times each in a year and a half. Not harassing, just very demanding. My thoughts on the lawyer letter is a citizen cannot tell you who to be in contact with, only a restraing order or similar. The statute is several years, so I still have time. I've tried to get over this and realize I was dealing with a rotten person and just move on, but four jobs is enough money to bother me daily. I did all the customers a good fair job and their pool went in just fine. I want to file a claim in small claims court this Monday morning and just get closure. I don't see how these very wealthy people can just stomp on me. Will a judge in small claims court side with me. I don't have any contract or agreement with these people.
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Small Claims Court. Do I have a chance.
- Thread starter Fastdirt
- Start date
lumberjack
Senior Member
How much money are we talking about?
Was your relationship with the contractor and homeowners defined in writing?
Was your relationship with the contractor and homeowners defined in writing?
Small claims is less than $15,000. It's well within that. I'd just rather not say the amount. It is four different jobs/invoices. No contract. I don't contract with my regular/repeat customers. It's a free market. You don't perform and you get replaced. If I get big (to me) demo or grading/clearing jobs I use a contract, but not in this case. A lawyer wants $700 per case to get started. My understanding is you don't need a lawyer in small claims and that's why I am leaning towards that. I am going on the hopes the judge would side with me in my work jeans, but I wouldn't be surprised if I got chewed up spit out. If I went the lawyer route I would almost give the lawyer all the money just so the crooks don't get free work.
I'm not too sure how the US sytem works in detail but as it's supposed to be derived from the English law system, of which I am familliar, I'll proceed, your honour..
I've filed small claims against non-payers for as little as $500. It costs a few bucks to register the documents at the court and you have to pay a court official (a bailiff, in our case) to serve the documents on the guy. At this point, I've never had someone not pay up. The official envelope and state sponsored stand-over-man are enough of a shock.
If, however he still refuses to pay, it's my choice whether or not to pursue the claim to the courtroom. If I decide that it's not worth the hassle, I just let the filed documents sit on a shelf at the court, happy in the knowledge that they'll remain against his name as an outstanding claim that will show up on his future credit rating.
If in the future you come to an acceptable agreement, you can just go back to the court and withdraw the claim.
I've filed small claims against non-payers for as little as $500. It costs a few bucks to register the documents at the court and you have to pay a court official (a bailiff, in our case) to serve the documents on the guy. At this point, I've never had someone not pay up. The official envelope and state sponsored stand-over-man are enough of a shock.
If, however he still refuses to pay, it's my choice whether or not to pursue the claim to the courtroom. If I decide that it's not worth the hassle, I just let the filed documents sit on a shelf at the court, happy in the knowledge that they'll remain against his name as an outstanding claim that will show up on his future credit rating.
If in the future you come to an acceptable agreement, you can just go back to the court and withdraw the claim.
grandpa
Senior Member
I'm not too sure how the US sytem works in detail but as it's supposed to be derived from the English law system, of which I am familliar, I'll proceed, your honour..
I've filed small claims against non-payers for as little as $500. It costs a few bucks to register the documents at the court and you have to pay a court official (a bailiff, in our case) to serve the documents on the guy. At this point, I've never had someone not pay up. The official envelope and state sponsored stand-over-man are enough of a shock.
If, however he still refuses to pay, it's my choice whether or not to pursue the claim to the courtroom. If I decide that it's not worth the hassle, I just let the filed documents sit on a shelf at the court, happy in the knowledge that they'll remain against his name as an outstanding claim that will show up on his future credit rating.
If in the future you come to an acceptable agreement, you can just go back to the court and withdraw the claim.
In Minnesota (and I think each state maybe different) you file your small claim's paperwork adding on the extra cost you incur in in doing so. Then a court date is set and you show up with all your paperwork... ie descriptions,time's , dates and any bills you may have. The respondent show's up with his side of the story and supporting documents. You both have your say and the judge make's his/her decision. If he rule's in your favor you then have to find something the respondent has in ownership, then file paper's to have the county sheriff pick up said property. Its all quit a hassle but its better then letting them off the hook in my opinion.
You also can file a 10-99 form on the respondent claiming the money owed you. This at least give the government a shot a taxing them even if they don't pay you they have to pay the tax.. you then can write it off as a bad debt if you haven't already done so.. (kinda like sticking it to them for sticking it to you..lol)
Good luck with your endeavors and good luck... Grandpa.
I don't know how GA works but here in WI it's more than $100 filing fee, service is by mail, and you'd be lucky to get a judgement for half of what you're owed without a written contract. Your chances go up with the more documentation you provide, even similar jobs that you billed or were paid for, to show you're not pulling numbers out of your but.
It sounds like you have a pretty good chance of collecting on the judgements if you get them, and it wouldn't be unheard of for most of them to pay up or settle before you go before a judge. Here in WI they make it a royal PITA to go through small claims, like show up a couple weeks before a trial and wait several hours to see a mediator, then come back for the judge only if you can't reach an agreement. Several of these hurdles are in your favor, you'll be waiting for so many hours and each of the four defendants will also be waiting the same amount of time, you take two days off work, each of them has to take two days each.
It sounds like you have a pretty good chance of collecting on the judgements if you get them, and it wouldn't be unheard of for most of them to pay up or settle before you go before a judge. Here in WI they make it a royal PITA to go through small claims, like show up a couple weeks before a trial and wait several hours to see a mediator, then come back for the judge only if you can't reach an agreement. Several of these hurdles are in your favor, you'll be waiting for so many hours and each of the four defendants will also be waiting the same amount of time, you take two days off work, each of them has to take two days each.
TEC
Well-Known Member
Always sign a contract.
Always get a change order signed, even if its on a scrape of wood or cardboard.
Start job with an 'Intent To Lien'. There are plenty of companies that handle the entire lien process.
Stop work and resolve issues when they start.
Back up conversations with full written English texts or emails.
Take lots of pictures and turn on location function on your phone.
If you get a lien do not let it expire.
Find an attorney and court officer that will work to get your money, yes they will get paid too, but it will be worth it.
There is no good reason to walk away from money owed for work you have done. And yes I have been guilty of not taking my own advise.
Tom
Always get a change order signed, even if its on a scrape of wood or cardboard.
Start job with an 'Intent To Lien'. There are plenty of companies that handle the entire lien process.
Stop work and resolve issues when they start.
Back up conversations with full written English texts or emails.
Take lots of pictures and turn on location function on your phone.
If you get a lien do not let it expire.
Find an attorney and court officer that will work to get your money, yes they will get paid too, but it will be worth it.
There is no good reason to walk away from money owed for work you have done. And yes I have been guilty of not taking my own advise.
Tom
dirtmonkey
Senior Member
You need to make friends with the right people on the wrong side of town. I prefer ax handles myself:naughty
In all seriousness , guys like him will always have a way out , leaving you holding the bag. The system does not work for guys like me and you. It s hard to hear but chalk it up to experience and move on. Now you know how these guys act and do business. They are poison ! Guys like him will get what's coming to them. I've seen it a dozen times. They WILL screw the wrong person some day! Just hang in there and do things right no matter what. I'm sorry you are experiencing this. It's a VERY VERY hard lesson to learn.:Banghead Good luck !
In all seriousness , guys like him will always have a way out , leaving you holding the bag. The system does not work for guys like me and you. It s hard to hear but chalk it up to experience and move on. Now you know how these guys act and do business. They are poison ! Guys like him will get what's coming to them. I've seen it a dozen times. They WILL screw the wrong person some day! Just hang in there and do things right no matter what. I'm sorry you are experiencing this. It's a VERY VERY hard lesson to learn.:Banghead Good luck !
:BangheadGreat advice from experience. Thanks so much to each and everyone. I have tried to let it go. That builder is poison and every lawyer I talked to knew of that company. I sent my fiancé to get the papers Friday and she was going to get civil court papers when the lady said we needed to be in small claims court. I knew that but, wasn't paying attention when she set out. She has started working for me and is readily available to do anything I ask her including this dirty work. I have not justified spending time and effort on this but she can certainly lighten the load for me. She is planning on going in the morning to get small claims court forms. I might just start with one customer where I actually have a picture of my equipment in front of the house. I'd be happy making a video with the company name and the facts from me personally. That business is all retail in an open market and it would come up in search results. I'm sure it's not legal. It just makes me MAD. I've tried to let her go as "poison" but it haunts me really because I did nothing wrong. Her pride was crushed when I told her off, and she is so head strong as a female she was determined to trump me because I was a year old business at that point.:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead
one thing i can tell you is if every lawyer knows of his company put him out of business get other people who have been burned by him and collectively sue him for his assets take his home car toothbrush w.e you can. scum bags like that are whats wrong with america today no honesty and no pride. the all mighty dollar is all they care about so hit him where it hurts, in the wallet
One step at a time here, the pool building consultant bimbo never agreed to pay a cent, and the excavator is suing four separate homeowners who the consultant told not to pay the excavator. Furthermore, the consultant bimbo is a dishonest deadbeat, while the homeowners with new pools are more likely good for it. Sue the homeowners, let them sue their consultant, or prove that they paid for their excavation work.
If you can document that you were regularly working for the consultant's customers (which the consultant confirmed by threatening to charge you for damage done to her projects) and being paid for it by the homeowners, then you have a fair shot at getting a significant judgement (if not the full amount). Unless your courts are much different than ours (?) sue all four at one shot, no reason for you to take more time off to treat each one special.
disclaimer, not a lawyer and the axe handle has it's appeal. or maybe on appeal a small crack in some certain concrete would make you feel a whole lot better? constructive mechanics lien?
If you can document that you were regularly working for the consultant's customers (which the consultant confirmed by threatening to charge you for damage done to her projects) and being paid for it by the homeowners, then you have a fair shot at getting a significant judgement (if not the full amount). Unless your courts are much different than ours (?) sue all four at one shot, no reason for you to take more time off to treat each one special.
disclaimer, not a lawyer and the axe handle has it's appeal. or maybe on appeal a small crack in some certain concrete would make you feel a whole lot better? constructive mechanics lien?
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TEC
Well-Known Member
Just like having a reputation as a good/bad company, once somebody shorts you and you do nothing, you get that reputation.
When you are giving your sales pitch to a customer/contractor let them know that they will receive an intent to lien, explain what it is, the only people that complain probably would have screwed you anyway. I have a company take care of the process because it's cheap insurance.
Tom
When you are giving your sales pitch to a customer/contractor let them know that they will receive an intent to lien, explain what it is, the only people that complain probably would have screwed you anyway. I have a company take care of the process because it's cheap insurance.
Tom
WOW, Delmer you are crystal clear on this. Makes me you think you live in Georgia and know of Build Your Own Pool Of Georgia. I have one years worth of emails where she would send me every single plan of the jobs through email and schedule me to do the work. Also, have the emails of her approving payment of all jobs. My brother has stood next to her and the homeowner while I was on the machine and would regularly hear her tell the home owners I was the best around at digging pools. So she is either lying to them or has to claim what she said is true. Yep she's a dirt bag. I have the texts from her husband threating to put his fist in my face. I've seen them cuss each other and scream at each other on site. I have all the emails from her threats against me to put me in jail, etc. etc. I work for some of the best pool builders in the state regularly. They use the same subs as Build Your Own Pool Of Georgia which needs to stop. They never ever come back and claim I did an excavation incorrect. Yet she tried to pit them against me and still claims they had to fix my work. It's not true. The subs all completed their process right behind me like regular business. She has fake eyelashes, orange spray tan, fake blonde, and would pull up in her convertible Porsche with these clothes that a 16 year old would wear if their Dad was out of town etc. etc. and it's really disturbing to look at. Some subs are attracted to that maybe. She has the work load and it's really dirty that those subs work for her because those subs were built by the true pool builders over the last several decades. I was just starting out on my own with well over 1000 in ground pools completed on my resume as an employee for a company. It was a blessing that I quit working for her because I was getting black listed for working for her too. Heck she sent me a letter of termination, like a girl trying to dump you after you dumped her first. That letter admits she hired me. The letter also said I am not to go back to the customers house. I'm dying to know how she portrayed me in order to have these people refuse to pay me.
On kudzu she shoots down every attack against her with heavy aggression. Not a happy person, and surely doesn't believe in doing people right even if your pride or feelings are hurt. More like revenge. I know it's a matter of time before she gets hers with those practices. I see that they have no legitimate case as a whole or as a single. I will get all the forms for all the cases tomorrow and proceed. I am not a pushover in this case. I dug a pool for a lawyer recently and he did some insight for me. I had received a thick lawyer packet from her a week prior because I had called the homeowners and left demanding messages for my pay. The lawyer knew her lawyer and contacted him they had a past together. They concluded it's all counter scare tactics that she claims I owe her $13,000 for damages. Impossible. I work along with those same subs daily still. By the way the first packet was from one firm and the other packet was from another firm. It would suck to be in business like that where attorneys are part of you business practice. The lawyers I contacted knew her name right away. Bottom line is she refused my pay on four separate jobs. I was her third excavator and now she's back with excavator number two. I am an honest by default. I'm a hard working skilled man trying to make my own living and she wants to see me burn for telling her to $%# off after trying to get me to lie to a customer and jack the bill. Her out of work neighbor had a dump truck and she wanted to get him in on the hauling. On the second to last job I had one load of tree trash. Her neighbor drove out and I loaded him She wanted me to lie to the homeowner in order to get him more money. No way will I lie to people. You might not like me, but I come from honest parents who instilled honesty in me. I'm not in it for greed at all. She told me to fatten my bill once to another customer because he had paid her cash and had a wad of money.
The worst part is the last job I did for here was a vanishing edge pool. She had never done one in her life and would be incapable without me there to look professional and carry her. I completely carried her through that vanishing edge job with my experience (sorry real pool builders, won't happen again. I was extremely desperate for work) and rented an extra bobcat for that job. The homeowners were all nice and friendly to me.....and not they are stealing from or just trying to rip me off.
Yes, this is what I think about daily and it's not healthy for me to bogged down with this darkness.
On kudzu she shoots down every attack against her with heavy aggression. Not a happy person, and surely doesn't believe in doing people right even if your pride or feelings are hurt. More like revenge. I know it's a matter of time before she gets hers with those practices. I see that they have no legitimate case as a whole or as a single. I will get all the forms for all the cases tomorrow and proceed. I am not a pushover in this case. I dug a pool for a lawyer recently and he did some insight for me. I had received a thick lawyer packet from her a week prior because I had called the homeowners and left demanding messages for my pay. The lawyer knew her lawyer and contacted him they had a past together. They concluded it's all counter scare tactics that she claims I owe her $13,000 for damages. Impossible. I work along with those same subs daily still. By the way the first packet was from one firm and the other packet was from another firm. It would suck to be in business like that where attorneys are part of you business practice. The lawyers I contacted knew her name right away. Bottom line is she refused my pay on four separate jobs. I was her third excavator and now she's back with excavator number two. I am an honest by default. I'm a hard working skilled man trying to make my own living and she wants to see me burn for telling her to $%# off after trying to get me to lie to a customer and jack the bill. Her out of work neighbor had a dump truck and she wanted to get him in on the hauling. On the second to last job I had one load of tree trash. Her neighbor drove out and I loaded him She wanted me to lie to the homeowner in order to get him more money. No way will I lie to people. You might not like me, but I come from honest parents who instilled honesty in me. I'm not in it for greed at all. She told me to fatten my bill once to another customer because he had paid her cash and had a wad of money.
The worst part is the last job I did for here was a vanishing edge pool. She had never done one in her life and would be incapable without me there to look professional and carry her. I completely carried her through that vanishing edge job with my experience (sorry real pool builders, won't happen again. I was extremely desperate for work) and rented an extra bobcat for that job. The homeowners were all nice and friendly to me.....and not they are stealing from or just trying to rip me off.
Yes, this is what I think about daily and it's not healthy for me to bogged down with this darkness.
Good luck to you. I hate to hear of good guys getting screwed.
I am currently going through a similar situation. It is too late for you on this one, but remember that if you file a lien, as you stated, it is time sensitive. You have to follow through and file foreclosure proceedings within a certain time frame or your rights expire, as you say yours did. Make sure if you have trouble like this in the future, you remember to follow through on the lien. It is not the end, just a step in getting paid. If the lien, or the foreclosure notice does not get you paid, the court can force the sale of the property and pay you with the proceeds. There are many steps to this, and each one has a time limit on it. Best to have legal help to not miss any deadlines. One missed deadline can result in your claim being worthless.
I am currently going through a similar situation. It is too late for you on this one, but remember that if you file a lien, as you stated, it is time sensitive. You have to follow through and file foreclosure proceedings within a certain time frame or your rights expire, as you say yours did. Make sure if you have trouble like this in the future, you remember to follow through on the lien. It is not the end, just a step in getting paid. If the lien, or the foreclosure notice does not get you paid, the court can force the sale of the property and pay you with the proceeds. There are many steps to this, and each one has a time limit on it. Best to have legal help to not miss any deadlines. One missed deadline can result in your claim being worthless.
joispoi
Senior Member
If they don't pay, you can always bring the dirt back. You never know when you'll have a nearby job and it's handy to have multiple dump sites.
Andrew_D
Senior Member
I hope you aren't serious. You are actually suggesting that he trespass and dump dirt in a pool? I can only imagine the fun a judge would have with that one!
Andrew
Andrew
overworked
Senior Member
That would probably be trespassing, vandalism ect, if you get caught.
joispoi
Senior Member
Andrew, please reread my post. Nowhere did I suggest, condone or recommend dumping dirt in a pool.
If the back tires of the truck "trespassed" in order to "deliver" a load of dirt at the foot of the driveway, someone would have to prove it.:cool2 In all seriousness though, that's not how to go about getting paid.
The legal term for what's happened is "unjust enrichment". The homeowners have been enriched by the services rendered without providing compensation. The law states that they have to pay, but at this time, there is no legal compulsion for them to pay.
With regard to this pool consultant, I would put a case together on this one, even if you have to spend $5,000 to collect $4,000. The threatening text messages are enough for you to take to the police and press charges if you feel "threatened". I would also contact the consumer protection agency in your state and find out what the definition of "general contractor" or "home improvement contractor" is in your state. It sounds like this "consultant" is playing contractor and operating without a license. The focal point of your research is going to revolve around the flow of money. Specifically, does money have to pass through the contractor's books to classify them as a G.C.?
If $15,000 is the cut off for small claims court, lawyer up and sue her for $45,000.....malicious conspiracy and collusion with your clients to defraud you and steal services, damages suffered from not getting paid, your time wasted trying to collect, lost sleep and whatever else your lawyer can think of.
There's a pretty good reason that her husband is trying to intimidate you- and from a purely legal standpoint, it would be a huge win for you if he assaulted you. Without a contractors license and without the protection of operating as a LLC or separate business entity, she is effectively contracting and doing business on her own name (DBA). Any property she owns in her name is on the line if she gets sued. She is risking an awful lot by operating this way.
It may be small claims court for the homeowners, but it sounds like you have a much bigger claim with this "consultant".
If the back tires of the truck "trespassed" in order to "deliver" a load of dirt at the foot of the driveway, someone would have to prove it.:cool2 In all seriousness though, that's not how to go about getting paid.
The legal term for what's happened is "unjust enrichment". The homeowners have been enriched by the services rendered without providing compensation. The law states that they have to pay, but at this time, there is no legal compulsion for them to pay.
With regard to this pool consultant, I would put a case together on this one, even if you have to spend $5,000 to collect $4,000. The threatening text messages are enough for you to take to the police and press charges if you feel "threatened". I would also contact the consumer protection agency in your state and find out what the definition of "general contractor" or "home improvement contractor" is in your state. It sounds like this "consultant" is playing contractor and operating without a license. The focal point of your research is going to revolve around the flow of money. Specifically, does money have to pass through the contractor's books to classify them as a G.C.?
If $15,000 is the cut off for small claims court, lawyer up and sue her for $45,000.....malicious conspiracy and collusion with your clients to defraud you and steal services, damages suffered from not getting paid, your time wasted trying to collect, lost sleep and whatever else your lawyer can think of.
There's a pretty good reason that her husband is trying to intimidate you- and from a purely legal standpoint, it would be a huge win for you if he assaulted you. Without a contractors license and without the protection of operating as a LLC or separate business entity, she is effectively contracting and doing business on her own name (DBA). Any property she owns in her name is on the line if she gets sued. She is risking an awful lot by operating this way.
It may be small claims court for the homeowners, but it sounds like you have a much bigger claim with this "consultant".
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dozier man
Member
i had a similair thing happen to me i did a week long job for a chain restaraunt here in town a sub that ive known for years and did countless jobs for hired me for the owner because there big buddies anyways i had no contract i gave a written bid for the work well i did that work and the sub ask me to do additional work i told him it would cost extra he said no problem well finished the job the sub said everything looks good so i call the sub up to turn in my bill he said come by and he would go with me to the owner to get my check well he was busy when i came by he said can you come back tommorrow and i did and dodged me and wouldnt answer my calls so i went to the owners office and he told me bluntly he didnt owe me nothing so after a month or so of no returned phone calls from the sub i went to the court house and they have had many cases against the owner for non payment to contractors i talked to lady at the courthouse and she told me this guy is bad news and always weaseled his way out of paying by saying the job was not completed as agreed so i just wiped my of this dead beat and have not ate at a w@#%!$ since
dozier man
Member
always sign a contract with the customer that way theres never a question i learned the hard way at a cost of 10k