Tier 4 and beyond?

steve.k · Jan 6, 2014

I'm writing this thread with hopes the manufactures are lurking! Ive talked with a lot of owners and dealers and the tier 4 woes seem to be endless, especially in cold climate areas?we have been sticking to used tier 3 trying to avoid the hassles, has anyone had good luck with the new regen setups and def fluid ? Gonna have to buy newer sooner or later?

vapor300 · Jan 6, 2014

Been around quite a few of the new 6T tier 4's, we actually had the first one of the assembly line and those were always having problems, just got 2 new 6T's in july and they have been pretty good so far but they only have 600 hrs.

FarmWrench · Jan 6, 2014

I'm afraid we just have to suck it up and adjust to the government mandate. I don't like it. I have an interm 4a tractor , def but no filter or egr and I try not to let the sun set on it. I am planning on putting up a building on one farm to have a place to keep it out ofthe weather when working onthat farm.

I pity you construction guys who can't keep that machine above 32f all the time. I figured that I would see portable temporary shelter set up to keep everything warm or plugged in. Truckers say that as long as they keep the truck running around or under cover they are OK but the house of card collapse once the truck spends a weekend below freezing shut down. I guess we will find out if that is just a myth soon enough.

vapor300 · Jan 6, 2014

I have started a tier 4 6T around 10 degrees and it starts fine

steve.k · Jan 6, 2014

I know up here in great white north it's been a big pain. Trucks like vac trucks which see lots of idle time are continually going into limp mode. I know guys who spend 15000-20000 per unit putting bypass systems in and delete kits.In far north regions where equipment has to run overnight this is a huge problem. The governments need to get it together and offer some exemptions on off-road equipment or remote areas. The whole system seems geared to warm climates.

FarmWrench · Jan 6, 2014

I'm balmy compared to Alberta, and St. Louis is not Buffalo NY.

Salt and corrosion is bad here because our temps are usually good for salt to work and there is a lot of salt mined locally. So my computer and wire components have a short life. Just like the dirt is different and has different wearing effects on equipment the weather is able to impact the important parts/systems we are forced to buy.

Alberta is major league cold.

steve.k · Jan 6, 2014

We had one guy here with 65 komatsu. Got machine runnin but it would only idle. Would not rev up?? Played with it for couple hrs( warming it up) finally took off. It was minus 35c that day. None of mine have that crap but getting worried after a few years when that's all that's left.

SVTSHELBYGT500 · Jan 6, 2014

Know what you guys are saying ! Sat. morning about 15 degrees here . started up JD 700 K with 300 hrs . warmed it up and ready to start working BUT red stop sign in dash comes on and derates engine . check codes , check JD-Link no codes . no one at dealership ? turns out to be fuel filters ? i guess i need to carry fuel filters with me . Thank You Tree Huggers !!!

FarmWrench · Jan 6, 2014

If they hold the regulations long enough for the engineers to get caught up they may start to find solutions or alternatives. I think DME, and the natural gas alternatives will gain a foothold just because of the emissions problems. Just a year ago Navistar admitted it could not make tier 4 without def.

Have you tried to set up temporary portable shelter?

ValleyFirewood · Jan 6, 2014

It's going to get to were a 10 yr old machine will be junk... Will all the expensive emissions and computers it'll be impractical to keep it going.

I know all the new emissions on pickups and class 8 tractors don't work out in the extreme cold. Urea freezing up, DPF clogging, etc.

Couple of my friends work up on the slope, I guess there is talk of going with gas engines to "fix" the problem.

steve.k · Jan 6, 2014

When we visited the Liebherr factory in telfs Austria they had a couple of machines that had Diesel engines converted to LNG. I don't remember where he said they were headed to but said this maybe the way of future?? I think the whole emission thing is outa control with no real homework been done!

vapor300 · Jan 6, 2014

Im from STL but havent worked here in years, last winter was in South Bend running a new 6T

245dlc · Jan 7, 2014

Canadian National Railways tested a couple of locomotives last year converted to run on LNG they had a tank car fitted to supply the LNG to the locomotives. I know a lot of people here in Canada that are buying the new diesel pickup trucks like the Dodge's and Ford's are getting DPF and EGR delete kits I wonder if that can be done for earthmoving machinery?

skiddy78 · Jan 7, 2014

I work in the oilfield in northern Pa and we are converting our high horsepower pumps over to running a 60%/40% split between diesel and LNG.

steve.k · Jan 7, 2014

I'm not sure about the hp equivelent with LNG but it does require a huge tank! Do you think you would make a 10hr shift? Maybe liebherr was on to something?

DMiller · Jan 8, 2014

LNG tanks for the railroads is due to lack of refueling stations not just to consumption rate(which is notably higher). LNG has less btu value and is extremely dry, Cummins tried it out a few years ago on St. Louis Metro busses, nothing but grief, engine life less than 150,000miles, considerable catastrophic failure rates from extreme wear in critical areas on the cylinders and valve seats. I am not a believer in the DEF fed tier 4 systems either, use considerably more fuel to do the same work so has to be making more emissions of something out the stack at least in total tonnage with the Urea coming from Natural Gas conversion where their major release material is CO2 cannot be good either.

steve.k · Jan 8, 2014

It seems a little of a smoke show when these so called emissions requirements make the engines burn more fuel to make the same hp? Are you not still emitting more co2 into the atmosphere?? The climate maybe changing like it has for 1000's of years but I doubt we have much impact. Right now here in alberta we are getting winter typical of that in the 60!s. My grandmother used to say when she was married in December 1938 we had zero snow and patches of green grass could be seen in her outdoor wedding photos? Unheard of in this country that time of year?it is interesting to note that most of the delete kits bring the mileage on pickups and big rigs anywhere from 2-5 mpg? Wouldn't that alone be letting out less co2?

ih100 · Jan 8, 2014

DMiller said:
LNG tanks for the railroads is due to lack of refueling stations not just to consumption rate(which is notably higher). LNG has less btu value and is extremely dry, Cummins tried it out a few years ago on St. Louis Metro busses, nothing but grief, engine life less than 150,000miles, considerable catastrophic failure rates from extreme wear in critical areas on the cylinders and valve seats. I am not a believer in the DEF fed tier 4 systems either, use considerably more fuel to do the same work so has to be making more emissions of something out the stack at least in total tonnage with the Urea coming from Natural Gas conversion where their major release material is CO2 cannot be good either.

Not to argue with your experience, but some engines burning DEF are more economical. It's a bit involved, but basically T 4 run higher injection pressure to get a leaner, cleaner burn so there's much less smoke to clean up. Trade off is you get higher NOX which you need the DEF to clean up. In my experience the DEF equipped engines are much less thirsty than the Interim engines with active after treatment.

DMiller · Jan 8, 2014

Has not proven out so in the US. Documentation on farm service machines, heavy equipment, road equipment seeing a loss of near to 10% efficiency over the previous non T4 engines in realtime use. The engines typically see a higher use as the system chokes down, then more use as the system goes into 'clean or purge' mode and sends excess fuel to clear the carbon in the converters. These engines also have a particulate filter, these have a service life that at a point they must be removed/exchanged for machine cleaning. As to leaner/cleaner, the leaner a burn in a diesel the more N2O it produces requiring ever more conversion in the exhaust.

I try to keep up with those in the community around me to see how the systems respond to real time event and not test bed reports.

steve.k · Jan 8, 2014

I sincerely beleive this all money grab for someone! I'll give you a example of some machines we currently use. On one occasion we did a demo of a new td25m we had our two current machines one of which was a 1978 td25c. We kept track of fuel consumption on all 3 and in the end it was the old c with the 817 ih engine that was the miser burning 100 litres less per 10hr shift than the 2000 td25g and 2010 25m? While this was before t4 it's not hard to see which direction things were headed.The performance of these three are nearly identical and certainly not representative of nearly 40 gallons per shift? The tier4 from what I've been hearing offer no gain over the previous models. I can definatly see this with my 08- 12 ford f350 that offers even less fuel economy than the 08. My brother inlaw owns big farm and he says on their big quad track case tractors they opted for delete kits and bypass programmers to bump fuel economy?

Tier 4 and beyond?

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