daves thread

KSSS said:

The visibility out the back on the C was poor, the visibility on D is even worse. All that extra plumbing and equipment for Tier 4 has to go somewhere. The camera is a available to provide an answer for anyone that looks out the back and complains about the view.

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Our 262C2 I feel has better visibility than our 242B3's. Now if you watch Bobcats video where they measure the distance you can see a board on the ground it may be worse, but as far as what I consider good visibility the C series is better than the vertical lift B we have. Probably due to sitting up so much higher and smaller lift arms.

I have only ever seen an older 299D in person and can say yes they suck, but the CTL machines always seem to have the ass in the air a lot more. It'll be interesting to see what the new D series is like. From the pictures it looks bad, but I'm curious. Then again none of our guys look backwards anyways, maybe a camera wouldn't be the worst.

Perhaps comparing the C to another CAT may make it appear better, I demoed a 279C and the view was bad coming from a CASE. A camera may be a good idea, I just wonder about dust, rain, snow and so forth obstructing the view.

KSSS said:

…………………….. A camera may be a good idea, I just wonder about dust, rain, snow and so forth obstructing the view.

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KSSS : (FYI) …..4 yrs ago I mounted a heated camera (from "Rear View Systems") just to the front of my tailgate and in the centre, Kinda next to the exhaust pipe, for commercial winter plowing …….. as you know, there is virtually no rear vision day or night when the rear glass is either iced up or buried in snow … for that task it works "AMAZING" especially the night vision.
But as the camera never gets taken off I couldn't be without it year round ….. rain, dirt, dust, brush debris …. no-problem … it is pretty well protected there, and if it gets a little dirty, like the front windshield, the camera is glass so it gets a quick wipe and good to go. The 7" monitor has 2 view settings, I chose to use the same view as looking into the rear view mirror in u'r p/u

Definitely one of the best add-ons i've ever put on a machine !!! ….. And I thought was cheap too at well under $300 incl. shipping ……. cheers

KSSS said:

Perhaps comparing the C to another CAT may make it appear better, I demoed a 279C and the view was bad coming from a CASE. A camera may be a good idea, I just wonder about dust, rain, snow and so forth obstructing the view.

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You are absolutely correct there, no contest at all to the rear visibility out of a CNH machine, especially when comparing the CTL's. I don't know if the case rear end gets raised a lot, but it sure seems like the Cat CTL's have their ass pointed towards the sky versus the wheeled models.

The wrong camera could be a problem, however I assume its the same one they use in their wheel loaders and such and will work okay. I don't think they would put one in there that would require a lot of maintenance but I could be wrong. The only experience I have with them was when we were driving the K series loaders around at their "dirt playground". They were brand new then, not sure how they have worked out over time.

For our guys the more I think about the camera the more I can't tell if its a great idea. For bigger guys that cant really twist around in the seat it would be nice. We have a couple guys that are "cozy" in the cabs. Also have some older guys that just prefer to not have to twist around. These guys all use the rearview mirror actually but the issue is that the back windows are impossible to keep clean for very long it seems, plus your field of view is limited with the rearview mirror. Still better than nothing though. Then theres our guys that just don't look, I have a feeling that even if theres a screen showing them where they are going they still wont look, but the ones who are trying to be careful will appreciate it.

From the way the specs read, ours will have the screen anyways so that I can program settings and passcodes for different operators, the camera option wouldn't be much on top of that compared to the costs of the things they back into.

I will say though its not the right way to fix a problem, but theres only so much you can do with our situation.

When I wanted even better rear visibility from my NH L220, I considered a rear camera. But I didn't have any experience with them, & wasn't sure it would let me see what was just off the back edges of my tracks when I'm working in the woods. And I probably would have had to mount the camera on the roof, which would have created clearance issues in the woods. The view directly behind I could see well enough with the inside rear view mirrors (there are 1 on each side of a NH L220).

So, I went low tech & just fabricated outside rear view mirror brackets that I mounted on the lift arms. The mirrors don't protrude further than my tracks, & I find them very natural to use & look at. And they show exactly whats off the back edges of my tracks. Even though the mirrors move up/down with the boom, they are useful over enough of a range to work. I haven't backed into anything since I've installed them.

You can see my installation in detail at my thread https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?35861-User-Improvements-to-New-Holland-L220-SSL-amp-Attachments

StumpyWally

All JCB skids and CTLs will be Tier 4 FINAL compliant once the new small platform T4 machines roll out. In my opinion (this is not verified by JCB), I think they probably could have kept their old HP ratings and been T4 Interim compliant with the current configuration (large platform Ecomax), but instead chose to simply roll out T4F with the de-rate. Keep in mind, our backhoes are running the same engine at 91 HP and 109 HP and are meeting current T4I emissions also without aftertreatment (NO DPF, No Re-gen, No SCR). Such is the basis for my opinion on the SSL/CTL de-rate.

Interestingly enough, the torque curve of the new T4F Ecomax is only about 4% less than the old 92 HP T3. Making up for some of that loss in overall torque is the quicker response and recovery from the T4F engine being High Pressure Common Rail/Electronic Injection (no mechanical injection pump).

It is my hope that for T4F on the above-75 HP engines that JCB will choose SCR as their solution. It is merely speculation on my part, but JCB usually tends to "buck the trend," so I'm thinking they may try and do what others aren't, because we already have a leg up on everyone when it comes to fuel efficiency, and I think SCR would only build on that, based on what I've seen on our Ag side of the business.

Can anyone offer some description or opinions on the undercarriage of JCB/Volvo CTL??

For example, any rubber or suspended components, ride quality, OEM track manufacturer/style, ground pressure, turf damage, etc.

Will JCB ever offer a track wider than the std. 12.6" on the small machines to minimize ground pressure?? Say like the 17" wide track on the large machines?? It seems odd that the smaller JCB 190T with the 12.6" track, for example, has a ground pressure of 6.2 psi, whereas the larger, much heavier 260T has a ground pressure of only 4.6 psi, owing to the 17" wide track. I think there is a place for the smaller machine with a very low ground pressure. I know I was interested when I was looking for a CTL.

Also, will JCB ever offer a rear drawbar or hitch for their CTL?? For my reasons, see my thread https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?39404-Pics-of-Rear-Drawbar-Hitch-Winch-for-SSLs-CTLs

JCBiron said:

All JCB skids and CTLs will be Tier 4 FINAL compliant once the new small platform T4 machines roll out. In my opinion (this is not verified by JCB), I think they probably could have kept their old HP ratings and been T4 Interim compliant with the current configuration (large platform Ecomax), but instead chose to simply roll out T4F with the de-rate. Keep in mind, our backhoes are running the same engine at 91 HP and 109 HP and are meeting current T4I emissions also without aftertreatment (NO DPF, No Re-gen, No SCR). Such is the basis for my opinion on the SSL/CTL de-rate.

Interestingly enough, the torque curve of the new T4F Ecomax is only about 4% less than the old 92 HP T3. Making up for some of that loss in overall torque is the quicker response and recovery from the T4F engine being High Pressure Common Rail/Electronic Injection (no mechanical injection pump).

It is my hope that for T4F on the above-75 HP engines that JCB will choose SCR as their solution. It is merely speculation on my part, but JCB usually tends to "buck the trend," so I'm thinking they may try and do what others aren't, because we already have a leg up on everyone when it comes to fuel efficiency, and I think SCR would only build on that, based on what I've seen on our Ag side of the business.

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SCR is the trend for meeting Tier 4 Final. So far nobody has been able to reduce NOX emission efficiently without SCR.

ah surprisingly i do not know everything about the j c b. but my guess is they have no plans to offer a rear hitch option. i dont know a lot about the tracks but they seem to be just the standard track undercarriage, nothing fancy; should be reliable. i also would guess they have no plans on putting a wider track on the small frame.

from what i understand jcb has met teir 4 final with no after treatment, as long as their under 75 hp.

i believe bobcat already derated their machines, which may be why jcb did it at this time.

word on the street is jcb will have scr and no dpf on their larger engines. word on the street is they will use significantly less urea than anyone else because of the efficient nature of the dieselmax. also, the dealer will be able to sell a kit to get rid of the emmissions stuff for burning high sulfur diesel. ah sounds like i will be "selling" my jcb to my buddy in another country.

so i was out and about looking at new skid steers today and i have a bone to pick again. how does nobody have an arm rest to go along with the joysticks? the case tr320 was obviously the worst. the lap bar dug into my arms while my hands were on the joysticks and the joysticks were in an odd location compared to other machines (im aware they are adjustable), and whats with the fit and finish on that machine? random joystick pods in the middle of nowhere with wires running to them mounted (loosely) somewhere by big awkward metal rods and such. honestly, did they take no pride in their design? i could go on and on but thats probably enough.

yes, the full large arm rest with the joysticks mounted to the arm rests on the j c b is key. i dont see how joysticks work out when there is not a real arm rest right there. ic kubota and cat (the bobcat might actually have it now not sure) try to make a type of arm rest outta the lap bars but they still dont really work out. at least the fit and finish on the rest of the kubota is good.

Looking at the inside of a JCB I feel the C series Cat controls are fairly close. They are very comfortable. The lap bars are the armrests which keeps things in the cab neat. Ive never driven a JCB to compare.

durallymax said:

Looking at the inside of a JCB I feel the C series Cat controls are fairly close. They are very comfortable. The lap bars are the armrests which keeps things in the cab neat. Ive never driven a JCB to compare.

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Not to mention that each joystick and arm rest in the CAT is independently adjustable with the simple pull of a lever so that an operator can set them to his preference. The joysticks also are part of the air ride platform and move with the seat so your arms are always the same regardless of movement.

I finally got into a D series on Sunday and I think CAT has raised the bar again in cab features. While some of these are not exclusive to CAT I think they are better integrated than nost others- heated high back air ride seats (vinyl or cloth), complete a/c cab integration (then entire a/c system is modular with the cab so the cab seal is never broken when the cab gets raised- this also has left a virtually clean chassis floor that a tech can basically crawl into and sit in when working on the machine), Bluetooth (I connected and the clarity was very good at WOT- the cab is very quiet), the accelerator/decelerator pedal is slick- acts as a decelerator when the machine is at high rpms, and smooths out the response when the machine is bouncy so that the machine is not revving up and down in rough terrain, visibility to the sides and front was very very good, the rear of the machine is no better, however, the rear camera is wide angle and offers clear sight lines beyond the towers and as close as about two feet behind the engine door and two feet above the ground- much closer than you can see out of even the best SSLs, the return to dig, work tool positioning and speed sensitive ride control worked very well.

I especially think the work tool positioning and ride control were very wel thought out- set your speed for ride control and it automatically turns off when you slow down to dig into a pile or dump into a truck and it turns on once you reach the speed you have set (based on operator preference), the work tool positioning allows you to set the angle and height of the attachment such as a mower, trencher, Harley rake, mulcher, broom, etc. All you have to do is push the button after you raise your arms to turn or go over a sidewalk and the attachment goes back to the height and angle you have set it at. The self leveling feature also works up and down and stays level to actual true and not the chassis level so if the machine is on an incline or decline the machine knows what actual true level is sets the bucket or forks at true level. I still think the visibility to the rear could be better but I really think they did their homework on this series of machines.

if i was buying another machine just for fun it would probably be a cat. they are pretty sweet rides. the one problem i have with the bobcats is ride control is only activated by a lever in the engine compartment?! come on now that is ridiculous.

i do not understand why it is so hard to have a button on the joystick to activate ride control. nobody offers this. apparently case does but you have to hold the button down the whole time you have it activated?! that is almost as laughable as when they made u hold down the 2 speed button the whole time u were in high.

the cat speed activated ride control (yes im aware that is case terminology) isnt much better. its a skid steer in certain situations you want ride control on and in certain situations you don't. its not contingent on speed, and it is something you would turn on and off like a hundred times a day. the bobcat system of leaving it on or off all day is just ridiculous.

im not impressed with the jcb system either. you have to hit a button on the dash but it will only activate when the loader arm is either all the way down or has no pressure on the hydraulic circuit. so it rarely gets used, which i am not happy about.

the kubota has similar arm rests as the cat, and i didnt find them overly comfortable, but maybe cat has it figured out.

the jcb joysticks do not move with the seat. i would imagine it would be better if they did. but one could probably make an argument either way.

did they change the radio location on the d series? cuz that does not look too handy in the pic...

Cat has a switvh to turn the ride control on or off on the right hand side. Only whe. Its turned on is it speed sensitive. Before you had to adjust it at the dealer. Ours is set to 4mph . If you turn the switch off it is completely off.

The only thing I didnt like about it on our machines is when you are carrying a heavy load. When the ride control kicks in the boom droos violently at first. I assume this is due to it sensing the load as the ride control performa as well with a heavy load as it does with a light load.

The radio location is poor but it allows you to use a much nicer radio than the brands that use the chea p Jensen one like the CNH machines.

I had a chance to at least sit in a new Cat D series cab (I think a 262D), & it was the first Cat cab I've ever sat in that I liked. But the radio location is COMPLETELY ridiculous....you can't see it without swiveling around & down. The Jensen radio in my NH L220 is on the right hand ceiling, & it's better but still somewhat hard to read. The radio on the front ceiling, like the JCB I think, is the best for visibility.

My NH L220 has ride control activated by a button on the right joystick...you have to hold it continually for ride control, which is a bit of a pain. What would have been wrong with a toggle on or off??

StumpyWally said:

I had a chance to at least sit in a new Cat D series cab (I think a 262D), & it was the first Cat cab I've ever sat in that I liked. But the radio location is COMPLETELY ridiculous....you can't see it without swiveling around & down. The Jensen radio in my NH L220 is on the right hand ceiling, & it's better but still somewhat hard to read. The radio on the front ceiling, like the JCB I think, is the best for visibility.

My NH L220 has ride control activated by a button on the right joystick...you have to hold it continually for ride control, which is a bit of a pain. What would have been wrong with a toggle on or off??

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I hate the cat radio location as well. Bigger guys bump the volume control often and can't swivel around to change stations. I'm smaller and don't have an issue. It was something I mentioned to a few different people from Cat, both territory reps and the "D' series engineers that stopped out, but they said the main concern that people had was being able to mute the radio when they got a phone call so they felt that by just adding bluetooth they would take care of the majority of the issues which providing the cab is as quiet as I have head, I'd believe it would, but its still would be nicer to have it mounted somewhere else. I think a big issue though is the size of the radio, they want to be able to use a standard single DIN radio which is very deep and the back of the cab is the only area that provides enough room for it really. I can see the new cab being much quieter than the C series. The C series was already the quietest cab I had been in. The D series you can see has fewer cab joints (like where the door seals, its all one big formed piece now versus multiple pieces on the C series. The HVAC that was mounted underneat your feet in the belly of the machine is now sealed to the cab which will be nice for many reasons, one less joint to allow depressurization and noise, the HVAC will be out of the way for service (not that it was really in the way before), no longer will I have to worry about guys pressure washing with the cab up and filling the HVAC cores with debris. If they got the side windows to seal a bit tighter I think that cab will set some records for noise levels inside. The only other thing that made some noise was the boom lock but I see they have a different design on the new machines.

The CNH machines have a better location but I am sorry that radio and speakers are a POS. In our machine you had to have them at 30 to overcome the hydraulic noise and by then the speakers were peaked out. The forward mounting of JCB and Bobcats radios is nicer but at least in Bobcats case they still use that cheap Jensen radio. Its not just that Jensen radio that sucks, we have a lot of problems with their Single DIN radios in our tractors as well. For $400 you think they could make something better, but instead we just replace them with $200 Marine Kenwoods that have far more features and work much much better. I think CAT may try staying single DIN so they can offer a CD player as well which is not that big of a selling point considering I have never had a CD player last more than a year in any off road piece of machinery. They just do not get along well with dust and the bouncing causes a lot of skipping. The auxiullary input jack is nice, but they really just need a USB hookup like everyone else. Even if you do not have an MP3 player, with a USB hookup you go to the store, but a $15 USB thumb drive, go home and download itunes, load all of your CD's into it, purchase any other music you may want, move it all to the thumb drive and plug the stick into the radio. Viola.


As for CNH ride control, I think Stumpy Wally has a new project on his hands. I am sure with some minor wiring skills you could turn that momentary switch either into a simple on off switch or you could wire it through a relay where each time you click the momentary switch it turns the ride control to the opposite of what it currently is, kind of like Cat's two speed trigger.

well the cat drooping under heavy load when ride control is engaged is understandable. i assume this (safety) is why the jcb demands you dont have a load on the boom to activate it. it would probably take some pretty sophisticated hydraulic wizardry to stop the cat from doing that.

i do like that about the jcb how there is almost nothing under the cab when you tilt it. 2 drive motors and a computer and wiring harness is about all that is there.

im not super picky about the radio location, its a problem i could overlook.

one thing annoying about the jcb is all the buttons you press a lot on the dash are the left side. so you end up pressing the buttons with your right hand. this is probably another one of their safety ideas making you stop the machine to operate the quick tach. at least cat has the button on the right hand side. can you set it so its activated at 0 mph?

I liked the trigger activation of the CASE machine in the 400 series the best. Easy to hold down, non fatiguing it was by far the best activation of RC. I don't want a continues switch, I like being able to chose without having to move my hands from the controls. The location on the Alpha series CASE machine is not as ergonomic as the 400 series, but I still prefer it to always on or always off mounted on the dash.

dave esterns said:

well the cat drooping under heavy load when ride control is engaged is understandable. i assume this (safety) is why the jcb demands you dont have a load on the boom to activate it. it would probably take some pretty sophisticated hydraulic wizardry to stop the cat from doing that.

i do like that about the jcb how there is almost nothing under the cab when you tilt it. 2 drive motors and a computer and wiring harness is about all that is there.

im not super picky about the radio location, its a problem i could overlook.

one thing annoying about the jcb is all the buttons you press a lot on the dash are the left side. so you end up pressing the buttons with your right hand. this is probably another one of their safety ideas making you stop the machine to operate the quick tach. at least cat has the button on the right hand side. can you set it so its activated at 0 mph?

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Cat's quick attach on the B and C series is on the left side and I run it with my right hand every time. Ride control is on the right side, creeper gear is on the right side and the display is on the right side.

I don't see why your wouldnt be able to set a new D series machine to 0mph.

KSSS said:

I liked the trigger activation of the CASE machine in the 400 series the best. Easy to hold down, non fatiguing it was by far the best activation of RC. I don't want a continues switch, I like being able to chose without having to move my hands from the controls. The location on the Alpha series CASE machine is not as ergonomic as the 400 series, but I still prefer it to always on or always off mounted on the dash.

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In my application where I have a hard enough time getting guys to use it I like having the master on off and then having it activated by speed. I think if they had to hold a button none of them would use it and we would loose a lot of material as that is what our 262C2 spends a lot of its day doing, carting materials across the farm.

the purpose of activating the ride control at 0 mph would be so that the switch on the dash acted as an on off switch so there would be no speed activation.

so i am aware that on the tier 4 large platform jcbs they have added screens to the rear and the side of the machine.

does anyone know if the small frame tier 4 will have these? as everyone knows im not a fan of screens anywhere on a skid steer.

also i assume they never changed the ride control button?

i am probably going to price a new tier 4 model small frame and see just what they would trade us for with our current one having 350 hours on it.

also i assume they didnt change the seat suspension?

can they be ordered with the michelin radial tires?

can michelin radial tires be retreaded? what is the cost of doing such a thing?

if i bought one it would be another buy without seeing deal like the last time so the more i know about them the better.

the less than perfect air ride seat and the joystick response were the only items that didnt meet my expectations on the original purchase without seeing.