Good Hydraulic Fluids

Art_H · May 19, 2012

Hello all,

I'm about to change my hydraulic fluid in my EX60-5. Looking for a good Hydraulic fluid. The Hitachi 46HN is a little pricey and is a 4000 hr fluid. My take is that a hose rupture could put a lot of fluid on the ground in 4000 hrs and may not be worth it. Is the Hitachi fluid any better than the other guys?

Differences and experiences with Shell Tellus 46 and or Chevron etc? Petro Canada 46 fluid I've heard is good.

Thanks

Nige · May 19, 2012

I'll wade in with my 2 cents.

Hitachi insist on zinc-free hydraulic oil and their 46HN oil is manufactured to meet that practice. There are not many zinc-free oils on the market of any viscosity, much less ISO VG 46.

We are using Conoco Ecoterra 46 hvi hydraulic oil as a replacement for Hitachi 46HN and it works well. It has an advantage compared to the "standard" Ecoterra 46 oil that it will not under any circumstances mix with water. As we have a very humid environment that is a major factor why we went for that oil. We go 4000 hours with this oil even though Hitachi don't recommend it, but oil analysis tells us it's still good and that's what I'd prefer to believe.

Not sure which other major manufacturers make zinc-free hydraulic oil. I think Mobil Excel DTE series is zinc-free.

Another thing to beware of. Some hydraulic filters will have a zinc content in the mesh frame that supports the filter media that leaches out when the system gets up to operating temperature. One of those filter makes is Fleetguard. I would recommend never use a Fleetguard filter (or any of the "minor" brands TBH) in an Hitachi hydraulic system - don't ask me how I know this ..!!

Art_H · May 19, 2012

Thanks Nige for the info. I've read a couple of your posts and you seem well informed.

I did not know that Hitachi spec'd zero Zinc in their Hydro fluid. I just did a fluid sample S.O.S. at Finning in BC. Zinc was at 245 ppm. A little low I was thinking for a standard attitive package. I don't know the history of the the fluid, and have only run it for 120 hours or so as a new to me machine @ 5700 hrs. Did some searching for the ZnDTP packages in as you say most hydro oils. The Tellus Shell oils are quite happy about advertising about their Zinc, and maybe as a 1500 hr oil it would do fine, but it seems that zinc can cause sludge buildup at the current fluid temps of modern hydraulic equipment. To get all the zinc out of my current system would be a lot of work, maybe I'll go with the Hitachi after all.

I have a higher than normal copper count at 38ppm, but not sure how long the oil's been in this machine.

Too bad about the Fleetguard, they seem to work well in my Cummins. The Stratapore is great.

Nige · May 21, 2012

To add a few more comments. I've got horror stories of Hitachis burning up pumps like there was no tomorrow when fed with zinc-based hydraulic oil, and at much less than 1500 hours. I will say that I'm referring to the larger models but the same should surely apply to the smaller ones also. Normal zinc level is 500ppm for an hydraulic oil with a zonc-based anti-wear package BTW.

We panic if we see zinc in double figures on our Hitachis ......... much less 245ppm. I'd be having heart failure ...!!
When we had the zinc leaching issue from the Fleetguard filters we saw as high as 30ppm.

I would not use Fleetguard filters if they were the last brand on earth TBH. Being part of Cummins is just an easy way for them to market their ****e filters IMO. My favourite is Donaldson.

I double checked the Mobil Excel DTE series oils (not the bog-standard DTE oils) and they are deffo zinc-free. So it appears that you don't have much of a choice if you want to get away from the Hitachi 46HN.

Art_H · May 22, 2012

Nige, Thanks againfor the tidbits of info. I have decided to go with a non-zinc oil as mentioned. However, on the Ecoterra HVI 46 PDF at the bottom it gives a warning on mixing their oil with a zinc containing oil.

Note: Ecoterra HVI Hydraulic Oil is not compatible with zinc-containing hydraulic oils, and may cause
residue, gelling or filter plugging if mixed with such fluids. Mixing the two products will lessen the
environmental benefits normally gained by using Ecoterra HVI Hydraulic Oil.

Not sure if the Hitachi specs are the same, I'll check. Tha means that a complete system cleanse is in order. That's a lot of hose couplings...

I'm looking into the availability of the Ecoterra HVI, I may go down to Washington state if either that or the Hitachie 46HN is cheaper in the US.

Art_H · Jul 21, 2012

Just a quick update. I went with the Hitachi HN46 4000hr oil. Got it for $98 per pail. Crysal clear and clean. Mr. Murphy came to visit 15 hours after the change and I lost a travel motor hose, and then lost a pail of oil....

Madaboutoil · Feb 3, 2013

Nige is spot on. However zinc free hyd oils are not that difficult to find. Most oil companies advertise them as ashless hydraulic oils.

There is a bit of scaremongering from HITATCHI about the use of genuine oil which does make it difficult. However many operators have successfully moved away from the OEM product. As long as it is to an ashless (non zinc) product

Nige · Feb 5, 2013

I have found from personal experience that Hitachi are anal about oil. On our machines I wanted to try using a TO-4 oil in components like the pump drive, swing drive, & final drives for the simple reason we were already using it in many other machines. Let's face it most manufacturers specify TO-4 for those applications. Hitachi would have none of it, their lubricant recommendations are not a specification, merely a list of brands and oil types within brands that they approve. Of course a list like that is out of date literally as soon as it is printed, you might just as well punch holes in the corner, hang it up in your bathroom, and use it to wipe your a$$ with. When I gave details & specification to them of the specific oil we wanted to use the answer was "we can't approve that, we haven't tested it", to which my reply was "well let me test it for you". Still no go.

Eventually I waited until the end of the warranty period and told them I was putting SAE50 TO-4 in anyway, whatever their so-called experts in Japan said. The improvement in oil analysis results, especially in the pump drive transmission, was literally off the chart. My next test is to give the pump drive a try using an SAE60 FD-1 oil. I think that might get even better results.

Nac · Oct 1, 2013

This topic has something to do with my situation. I have a JD 160Clc it was low on hydraulic fluid broke a couple lines on the last job hammering rock. Any way had a mechanic service the machine recently and he added 5 gal of hydraulic fluid it was not Hitachi brand it was the stuff you by at a hydraulic hose supply. What do I do now?

FMD · Oct 1, 2013

Madaboutoil said:
Nige is spot on. However zinc free hyd oils are not that difficult to find. Most oil companies advertise them as ashless hydraulic oils.

There is a bit of scaremongering from HITATCHI about the use of genuine oil which does make it difficult. However many operators have successfully moved away from the OEM product. As long as it is to an ashless (non zinc) product

From my understanding, the zincless oils are for units with sensitive copper and silver parts. The zinc acts as a metallic particles and tears up the copper and silver lined parts.

Mobil M-46, Castro zz and Chevron Clarity meets the ISO 46 with zinc free.

Nige · Oct 1, 2013

Nac said:
This topic has something to do with my situation. I have a JD 160Clc it was low on hydraulic fluid broke a couple lines on the last job hammering rock. Any way had a mechanic service the machine recently and he added 5 gal of hydraulic fluid it was not Hitachi brand it was the stuff you by at a hydraulic hose supply. What do I do now?

If JD are the same as Hitachi and insist on ashless hydraulic oil in their machines (remember my comments above were specifically related to Hitachi - I have no JD experience as all) - Panic......!!

And when you've calmed down, a couple of questions.

1. How much total oil is there in the hydraulic system..?
2. Did the mechanic add a complete 5 gallons, or less than that..?
3. What brand of oil was it..?

Post the numbers back here and we'll figure out where to go from there. Maybe if it's 5 gallons of oil that is not too high in zinc to start with (that's why knowing the brand is important) then maybe the resulting mixture has a low enough zinc content in it that you may just be OK until your next system oil change.

pp13bnos · Oct 1, 2013

Great, I'm having a heart attack right now, after reading this thread. I've added probably 3-4 gallons of hydraulic oil since I've bought my ex120 coming up on two years ago.

http://www.coastoil.com/specsheets/76/Hydraulic Tractor Fluid.pdf

This is the stuff I was adding. I've probably put 250+hrs on it. I guess its time to do some oil samples....:Banghead

Edit, after doing some research, I found that Wix makes the oil filters I've been using, but can't seem to find out if they use zinc. I guess, I need to start going to Hitachi...

2nd edit: Yeah, they have zinc in them...

Nac · Oct 2, 2013

Nige said:
If JD are the same as Hitachi and insist on ashless hydraulic oil in their machines (remember my comments above were specifically related to Hitachi - I have no JD experience as all) - Panic......!!

And when you've calmed down, a couple of questions.

1. How much total oil is there in the hydraulic system..?
2. Did the mechanic add a complete 5 gallons, or less than that..?
3. What brand of oil was it..?

Post the numbers back here and we'll figure out where to go from there. Maybe if it's 5 gallons of oil that is not too high in zinc to start with (that's why knowing the brand is important) then maybe the resulting mixture has a low enough zinc content in it that you may just be OK until your next system oil change.[/QUOTE

He added 5 gals. It was the house label brand I will find out tomorrow more info on the oil. the machine has 45 gal total capacity and 20 gal tank capacity. It is still about a few gal low 2-3. Also John Deere/ Hitachi same machine just different motor.

pp13bnos · Oct 12, 2013

My SOS came back with a zinc level of 407, witch gave me a stroke after reading what Nige had to say about bigger machines. I called my Pape (Hitachi/Deere) service department, and told them the numbers. The guy I talked to said he wouldn't not worry about it, but at the next Hydro change to swap it out for non zinc oil. He claimed there would only be a slight increase in wear running the zinc oil. However, I'm going to change it out soon as I can get down to the dealer to up the oil.

FYI, My cost of the Ecco Terra at our local lubrication shop, was $970 for a 55 gallon drum, vs $100 a 5 gallon bucket for the 46HN from Hitachi. Not to much difference. I'm going to stick with the 46HN probably.

jeffb · Dec 12, 2013

We are putting together a little EX1200 for cutting wall. This will be the only thing on site with zinc-free hydraulic oil. I don't have much faith in it not getting our regular oil in it. I am thinking of trying to flush the system out to convert to the same hydraulic fluid as our Cat equipment. We use Conoco TO4 spec fluid. Is the problem with the pumps that the zinc oil damages them somehow, or is it more when they get some zinc mixed in with the zinc free?

I also am leaning very heavily to SAE60 FD-1 oil in the undercarriage and pump drive. We use it in the rest of our equipment with great success. But may make a point with Hitachi the same way I did with Komatsu and use their spec fluid for a couple months and show them how terrible it is, then convert and show the improvement. We will be starting with 80W90 in the finals and 30wt TO4 in the pump drive.

Nige · Dec 12, 2013

Jeff. Welcome ...............

You will tear up pumps like there is no tomorrow if you try to run that machine on straight zinc-based 10W hydraulic or 10W TO-4. Don't ask me how I know this .........!! It has to be an ashless hydraulic oil or nothing. Conoco has one available - EcoTerra HVI-E 46. I share your pain about people putting the wrong oil into machines but I haven't found a way to get round the need for an ashless hydraulic oil on the larger Hitachis.

Like you we have a mostly Cat fleet so obviously we try to standardize oil based on what's best for the Cat machines and fit other makes around those specs.

We are currently using SAE50 TO-4 in our Hitachi pump drives and it works really well. I would have thought SAE30 might be a bit on the light side for that compartment bearing in mind the loads on the gears. I thought from memory that Hitachi wanted a straight SAE40 oil in that compartment.

Hitachi Swing Drives and Final Drives we also use SAE50 TO-4 and again it works really well - see my post above. My thought would be that FD-1 at SAE60 might be a bit on the heavy side, especially when cold. The base stock is close to double the viscosity of an SAE50. If you do go the FD-1 route in finals/swing boxes please come back and let us know how it goes. I for one would be really interested.

jeffb · Dec 12, 2013

Thanks for the quick reply, not the answer I'm looking for but I will try to bite the bullet. At least Conoco is our oil supplier and the product is readily available. Now I have to find somewhere to put it and get it to the machine. Lube trucks are already overloaded.
The manual for this EX1200 just has straight motor oils for the pump transmission- 10W, 30W, and 40W depending on temp. Even thought the charts never work for us, I try to split the middle and I have a lot of 30W on hand (D10 &11 tranny). All other pump drives we have Letournough 1850, Cat 5230, we run the 60W Conoco FD-1 oil (also finals, spindles, etc). But to start with and since it is winter right now, we will start with their recommendations. I would bet before the year is up we go with the 60W at least in the swings and pump drive that is out of the cold a little.

Nige · Dec 12, 2013

Pump Drive. I could never for the life of me figure out why Hitachi want to put a motor oil in what is obviously a power transmission. That's why we went for TO-4.

Thinking about your FD-1 question again (it seems you don't have SAE50 TO-4?) I am of the opinion that provided the machine is warmed up relatively gently after a cold start I don't see a problem with FD-1 in swing boxes and final drives, although for finals I guess it depends how much travelling the machine has to do will affect the choice between 30 & 60. Are you operating 24/7..? If so the number of cold starts is greatly reduced and so long as the maintenance crew are around when the machine is first cranked up after a cold start to make sure it's warmed up before putting it to work there shouldn't be a problem.

jeffb · Dec 12, 2013

We used to use 50w TO4 before they came out with the 60w FD-1 product. Then it was frankly a storage issue- we pushed out the 50w TO4 and put the 60w FD-1 in place of it. It is too cold here 1/2 the year to use 50w in the dozer tranny. We are 24/7 but a dozer will be parked once in a while and the filters plug and drive us nuts with the 50w has It usually doesn't get over 100 deg F in the summer so the 30w does fine. We get 15k to 20k hours out of the trannys. One of our other sites keep trying to use 50w in the trannys and have to cut it to 40w or so in the winter.

Nige · Dec 12, 2013

We're in a hot tropical climate and yet we still use SAE30 TO-4 in all our transmissions. I found they last better with 30 than with 50. We got really into it a number of years ago when the "perceived wisdom" was to use the heaviest oil you could get away with. What we found with trannys, especially ICM-controlled ones, was that if you put a Dataview on the pressure taps at 100 cycles/sec you could see it took between 75-100 milliseconds longer for the clutches to fill after a shift with 50 than it did with 30 - that sold us on using 30. Our dozer trannys go anywhere up to 20k also. I wouldn't even think of using SAE50 even in our climate, and our winter night time minimum temperature is probably high-60's Fahrenheit.

All our dozers and large haul trucks use SAE60 FD-1 in front wheels, final drives, & diffs but we found that didn't work in 777F's. We had to switch back to SAE50 TO-4 because the oil analysis on the 777 rear ends was really bad at higher hours on the FD-1 and it didn't go away with dialysis. Changing to SAE50 fixed the problem.

We stock TO-4 in 10W, 30 & 50, plus SAE60 FD-1.

So heavier is not always better............

Good Hydraulic Fluids

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