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Are we approaching a crisis with Yarders?

Scott S

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Mar 26, 2011
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164
Location
Oregon, Willamette Valley
For many timber companies on several continents cable logging is becoming the only choice for getting wood products to market. Over the last several decades with the advent of incredibly versatile and powerful log loaders shovel logging has removed most of the easy to get to timber many areas leaving steep and remote sites left again just as decades earlier.

With Madill leaving the industry for a time a gapping hole was left for new yarder production and with current new prices of $1.5 million plus US and 1-2 year lag times of getting a machine built most logging companies don't have the capital to put at that kind of risk. Many machines including our own are over two decades old and while a total rebuild is always possible the several months of down time for a expensive refurbishment is very difficult for a company to survive.

Some companies have been purchasing machines to keep in the “bull pen” in case of a major failure as a replacement but often these machines are being used for spare parts and quickly become unusable. To make matters worse many yarders have been shipped out of the US over the last decade exacerbating the shortage of viable machines here in North America.

Are we quickly getting to a time when aging yarders become a hazard? I have seen a couple of machines over the past few years that had some real issues, I fear one or two machine failures with serious injuries involved may lead to a industry wide inspection/recertification or red tagging of yarders.

Is my fear justified? What are your thoughts?
 

theironoracle

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SCOTT S, INTERESTING THOUGHT. FIRST I UNDERSTAND VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE OF LOGGING IN THE NORTHWEST LET ALONE THE WORLD. FIRST I AM WONDERING ABOUT YOUR STATEMENT "shovel logging has removed most of the easy to get to timber many areas leaving steep and remote sites left again just as decades earlier" HOW MUCH OF THIS IS THERE SAY IN OREGON? OTHER CONVERSATIONS I HAVE HEARD IS THAT THE "EASY LOGGING" I.E. TRACTOR, AND SHOVEL PAYS FOR THE DIFFICULT LOGGING, IF A LAND OWNER HAS ONLY YARDER LOGGING LOG PRICES CAN'T PAY FOR THE YARDER OR HELICOPTER LOGGING?? SO THEN IT COMES DOWN TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND IF LARGE INVESTORS IN THE LOGGING INDUSTRY SEE THAT THEY NEED (X AMOUNT) OF NEW YARDERS TO REMOVE (X AMOUNT) OF TIMBER THEY WILL BUILD THEM AND HAVE THEM IN INVENTORY IF NOT THERE IS NO "CRISIS". I WOULD BE PRETTY CERTAIN THERE IS A NUMBERS CRUNCHER AT MODERN MACHINERY LOOKING AT A REPORT OF CURRENT "YARDER" LOGGING TIMBER INVENTORY AND IF IT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THERE WILL BE A SWITCH OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS TO REMOVE SAY LIKE AN EXTRA 4 BILLION BOARD FEET IN OREGON, THEY WILL BUILD THEM AND HAVE THEM IN INVENTORY SO THEY CAN SELL THEM, OTHERWISE NO CRISIS??????????????? MY THOUGHTS.......THEIRONORACLE
 

wornout wrench

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Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
740
Location
canada
I know what you are talking about Scott.

As much as I hate it, I am a grapple yarder mechanic. I hate the darn things but it is what I do. I get away from them, but I always come back for some unknow reason.
I'm trying to teach as much as I can to the young guys because I plan to retire in a few more years and there aint too many of us left that can keep this old logging junk running LOL

I used to worked for Tmar on Vancouver Island for a while and yarders were one of the things that we rebuilt. Some of those old girls coming in were pretty worn out.
Parts are a major issure, if you break a gear good luck finding one.
One machine broke a haulback gear, we took the old one off and sent it to vancouver and they used it as a sample to make a new on. Dont even want to guess what that cost.

Once you get into a major rebuild, the things you find wrong just keeps growing.

The abuse that these machines take and the metal fatique must be taking its toll. Shoddy repairs done in the past, the late night welding repair to get it running for the morning and we will repair it properly later that never happens. All adds up to a recipe for disaster.

These machines were build strong to take the abuse but some of them are getting pretty old. Too many 5 gallon overhauls in the past

Yes, I think your fears are real.

My 2 cents worth
 

Scott S

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Mar 26, 2011
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164
Location
Oregon, Willamette Valley
IF A LAND OWNER HAS ONLY YARDER LOGGING LOG PRICES CAN'T PAY FOR THE YARDER OR HELICOPTER LOGGING?? SO THEN IT COMES DOWN TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND IF LARGE INVESTORS IN THE LOGGING INDUSTRY SEE THAT THEY NEED (X AMOUNT) OF NEW YARDERS TO REMOVE

With a up to two year lag to get a new machine, all of us are so far behind the curve we will never catch up. From what I understand I could get a new 172 built if I put up $300K and waited for a year or two, how would that fit into current demand changes?

Scott S
 

JTL

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Dec 2, 2008
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Pacific Nortwest U.S.A.
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IUOE Local 302
Me and a buddy of mine were talking about the same thing one day earier this winter. In North Idaho it's mostly tractor ground. All that has pretty much been logged over for the 2nd or 3rd time. There are a few little yarders (98 Link Belts, GT3's and Christys) and a couple yoders some guys are running now, and the Forest Circus is putting out a few chopper sales every year. The State has been putting up some sales the last couple years that require big towers to span out 3 or 4 thousand feet because they don't want to build or rebuild roads because of the enviromental BS they have to go through. Problem is nobody wants to fork out the money for a big yarder because of the short work seasons, lack of help, low timber prices, high fuel prices, and like you say Scott, what happens in a year or two when the markets change again.

Like you said. All the big towers and big swingers are getting some age on them. If you really get to looking at them, all coverd in rust and moss and what ever else. What is all that corrosion hiding. Some of the bigger towers that are for sale have been sitting for years. And as everybody knows, once you start running them thats when all the demons will show up.
 

catdw21e

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Feb 16, 2010
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12
Location
Wa
Scott has brought up an extremely important issue. I started out in Logging when wooden spars were still in use. I have also been involved with the evolution of portable spars to now. I have always wondered with the relatively high value of timber, why the Logger has always had to scrap for enough money for operations with rarely enough for updating iron. I believe the crisis Scott spoke of is already upon us and hopefully the timber owners will recognize it soon. The mills and resource managers are in the mix as well and need to recognize and finance the rebuilding of the long span tower segment in order to fulfill their production quotas. My thought is that there is more than enough value in timber to amply finance its safe extraction with modern and safe equipment.
 

theironoracle

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Scott s, just a thought here don't know if it would work or not, how about calling your bonding company and getting a bond to cover that $300,000 it would cost you only 1% to 3% and if things changed enough according to your contract with your bonding company and the dealer then you can let there lawyers to sort that out? Another question here, can you actually get paid enough to pay for a new $1.5 mil yarder (about $170/hr i think in repiar and maintenance and devaluation)? My quick numbers show that yarder skidding costs 5-7 times as much as tractor or shovel skidding, plus the additional cost of hand falling? I just don't understand how those trees are currently worth removing at todays prices! .............just a few more thoughts..............theironoracle
 

boardbysled

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Jun 6, 2012
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179
Location
NW Oregon
Holy cow. Spendy! Is that coming from New Zealand or made in the states?

I personally think that the market is set for the next decade or so. There are enough used machines on the market to satisfy demand. The engineering on the machines are amazing and that is what leads them to lasting so long. They also benefit from using mechanical injection motors so they skip the wiring nightmare that many newer machines have. But, they all will reach the point where they are plum wore out.

What then?

I believe we will see a conversion to mostly yoder style machines, with sales being setup with shorter yarding distances. We will also have smaller piece sizes going into the future, so the need for yarders with huge line capacity will be diminished. I already see this with less sales being setup with landing that support these large yarders, and more benefit the use of smaller yarders such as the 071 or even yoders.

Also, with the price of L&I (at least in Washington) for yarder crews, I see grapple yarding probably coming more and more into play.

This being said, there still will always be that odd sale that needs a larger yarder. Almost every logger in NW Washington has a big Skagit/Madill/Thunderbird/Washington sitting somewhere, ready to be used when those longer sales do come up, and many are currently using them.
 
Last edited:

Jumbo

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Nov 12, 2010
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Black Diamond WA
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The question I have; what will be used for guyline stumps and tail holds? Every time I see a tower, there is at least one cat and usually more being used a guyline stumps.

I was watching a small Koller Tower last year, a 30-foot tower, and he was pulling stumps with it. He ended up using a processer and a small cat for his guylines. He was reaching out only about 550 feet, small wood and small stumps, steep ground.

If you start reaching out a couple thousand feet because of roadless requirements, that will call for more even more guylines and some pretty stout tail holds.

Machinery costs are prohibitive for something new, but wait until you get to the “extras” like “spare cats” for anchors.
 

truckdoctor

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Nov 14, 2010
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152
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reno nevada
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mechanic
I am not familiar with the logging industry, but I am familiar with the equipment industry. The company that I currently work for will do certified rebuilds on mining loaders, dozers, and haul trucks with really high hours. The price and down time for the machines is substansially lower than buying new. Also the machine that is being rebuilt gets all the updates available if the customer wants them. I may be wrong but I don't see where a yarder could not be refurbished and updated in the same way. I agree though the market has to be there to make it cost effective.
 

John C.

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There are only so many hurts that a frame on any piece of equipment can take. Most of the big iron in the woods has tens of thousands of hours on the frame with extensive impact loading. Sure you can throw new components into the frame as much as you can afford. What will be the reaction if one of those components comes loose and decides it will part company with the base machine?

You have men working under those lines. Would you want to take the chance of an employee trying to dance away from a run away log with a carriage and a thousand feet of wire rope attached?

I kind of agree with all here about the fate of the big yarders. The size of the wood kind of makes them overkill, you have to have so many sticks per pull that it seems the fuel costs would kill the profit. It takes a lot of dog hair to be able to pay a crew, capital costs, maintenance costs, insurance and fuel and then try to put some dollars in your pocket.
 

loggers son

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Jan 25, 2011
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bathurst australia
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shovel logger operator
isn't this just a basic supply and demand issue?

as we have seen recently Madill machines are being built again and Tmar machines are on offer also.

While prices for new equipment may be high at the moment as there is still a reasonable supply of viable 2nd hand gear, so not as many new machines needed, the older machines will become obsolete,worn out, wrecked, burnt etc. thereby creating a greater demand for new machines.

more yarders needed = more orders placed with manufacturers = better economies of scale = cheaper yarders

or

more yarders needed = openings in the market for more manufacturers = competition from manufacturers to sell product = cheaper yarders

Very basic premise I know but you get the drift.

I realise that in the short term it will still cost a lot for new gear but eventually every market place finds an equilibrium.It is just that at the moment we are going through the after effects of too many manufacturers and new machines and no logging work which resulted in many companies (both manufacturers and loggers) going broke....... I hope we never see that again ......but we aren't as smart as we would like to be.
 

John C.

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The problem with new is that you have no control over what the buyers will pay for the wood. How many sticks will it take to pay off the machine. With the cost of insurance now days, they will have to have robots setting chokers and doing the rigging. The guy in the cab will be a computer jockey with a screen and maybe a joystick.
 

theironoracle

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Loggers son and john c., i second both of your posts!!! Tio
 

Redhorse

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Mar 4, 2013
Messages
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Idaho
With regard to operators investing in new iron, here in our area Potlatch (under relatively new mgmt) continues to pay at marginal to near breakeven prices to the point where a local long time operation has thrown in the towel and is now breaking up. That says a lot about why nobody wants to risk investing. Two cents from my area.
 

Jumbo

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With regard to operators investing in new iron, here in our area Potlatch (under relatively new mgmt) continues to pay at marginal to near breakeven prices to the point where a local long time operation has thrown in the towel and is now breaking up. That says a lot about why nobody wants to risk investing. Two cents from my area.

Who is it?
 

Redhorse

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Mar 4, 2013
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Idaho
Who is it?

I'm new here so I want to make sure it's kosher to drop names - is it considered acceptable? If not I can PM you. The owner employs over 100 if I remember right. Probably small by some standards but a big employer for a small area for sure. The business will be split up and subdivided so there will still be something left but not anything like it was.
 

catdw21e

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Feb 16, 2010
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Wa
I have worked for and had my own outfit in the forest industry for a long time. As some have written about revenue for operations rarely does anyone make enough to finance new iron let alone keeping their heads above water financially. As long as a few companies are willing to work at less that adequate prices we will always have a struggle. In one area of Washington State a Timber Co that I contracted for had a saying among their contract administrators that they were doing their pricing correctly if one outfit a month went broke. Redhorse knows what I am stating as he is experiencing this even now. I have no answers other than to work smart not so much hard. Good luck to all of you true American Timbermen and support personnel.
 
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