Open Bowl VS elevating scraper for 9inch topsoil removal on 100acres

Jocasta · Dec 6, 2012

Hi,

We are currently completing a job and the contracting company have asked us to take 9inches of topsoil off the entire 100-150 acre property as they are redeveloping it. We have been looking around and can hire either an open bowl or 623H elevating scraper (both self propelled, single engines I believe) and are unsure which one would be best. Any opinion would help!!!

Its for a farming property and they've requested it be about 9inches off the top. Because it will have cows on it not houses it doesn't need to be perfect but it does need to be quick and efficient as we are paying by the hour for hire. Also, it is only black/sand topsoil not clay but it has rained like twice here in the past 6months and the ground is extremely dry (our garden has turned to sand due to water restrictions). We were leaning towards the elevating scraper but are a little concerned the ground will be too hard for a cut. we don't want to use a dozer if we don't have to.

any tips on a scraper or how to go about the project in general would be really helpful.

thanks!
Aussie Chick

Oxbow · Dec 6, 2012

Aussie Chick,

A 627 would be your safest bet if the ground was to get hard as you would not need a push dozer. With only 9 inches of cut though I suspect that the 623 would be most cost effective. 9 inches x 100 acres is 121000 cubic yards. How far is it being moved? I cannot envision a scenario where you would have to strip the entire 100 to 150 acres, and then replace it. I suspect you would strip a section, level or balance the material in that section, then replace the topsoil so you are not moving it too far. Even at that, that is a big job for one scraper.

Many people here are now using large farm tractors (either rubber tire or rubber track) and 2 or 3 miskin type scrapers behind them. If conditions are right that appears to provide the lowest cost per yard. Those may not be available around dubbo. Conventional open bowl single engine (621-631) don't load well without a push cat.

I would like to know more about the project to be able to give appropriate suggestions.

Swamp rat · Dec 6, 2012

If they are available in your area - a scraper tractor with 2 or 3 pull pans would be quickest and most cost effective. How far are you having to carry the soil before stockpiling?

DPete · Dec 6, 2012

I can't imagine why you would want to strip the top soil for cattle but in dry sandy conditions a 623 can leak part of its load during travel, an open bowl with the apron would not

terexkerry · Dec 6, 2012

aussie chick,if you can try 2x ts14,s push pulling,bullett proof good luck with your contract,kerry

The Learner · Dec 6, 2012

if you have a large farming tractor with more than 400 horsepower you could consider this
http://www.westrac.com.au/pages/productsubfamily.aspx?psfid=17530645
or if you have a tractor with more than 500 horsepower you could run two in tandem

just another option could be cheaper/faster/more efficient?

637slayer · Dec 7, 2012

another thing to consider is an elevating scraper really dries the dirt out, if its dry now it will be really dry after you move it with a paddlewheel.

coalroller · Dec 8, 2012

find a few 627's they are fast enough to run circles around a paddle wheel with good operators

Gavin84w · Dec 8, 2012

If you only have to take 9 inch,s off the 627 will take a long while to boil it up in the bowl, the stuff is going to be like powder by the sounds of it and that will make it a bit harder to heap up as well, twin power burns more fuel also.

My thoughts would be to get a 14 size grader and rip it then grade it into windrows the 623 can just come in and hook into it without having to worry about keeping depth right as the grader could do that, maybe even get a GPS grader so you know you are doing 9 inchs all over and not digging more than you have to.

The 623 i would set up with a straight cutting edge for that, no stinger or teeth on the centre edge.

Might think it would cost more with a 2nd machine but the grader will pay for itself especially if it is GPS equipped and it will help keep a haul road in decent nick so the scraper can cycle fast.

Oxbow · Dec 8, 2012

Jocasta has been conspicuoisly quiet since this thread began, and like DPete said, why on earth would you want to remove 9 inches of topsoil on a cattle operation. Something fishy going on here?

Buckethead · Dec 8, 2012

As Oxbow and DPete said, I cannot understand why they want to strip topsoil off a farm? Unless they are developing the site right now.

Gavin84w said:
If you only have to take 9 inch,s off the 627 will take a long while to boil it up in the bowl, the stuff is going to be like powder by the sounds of it and that will make it a bit harder to heap up as well, twin power burns more fuel also.

My thoughts would be to get a 14 size grader and rip it then grade it into windrows the 623 can just come in and hook into it without having to worry about keeping depth right as the grader could do that, maybe even get a GPS grader so you know you are doing 9 inchs all over and not digging more than you have to.

The 623 i would set up with a straight cutting edge for that, no stinger or teeth on the centre edge.

Might think it would cost more with a 2nd machine but the grader will pay for itself especially if it is GPS equipped and it will help keep a haul road in decent nick so the scraper can cycle fast.

I think using a grader to make windrows is double handling the material, no way to make money. If you see a 623 loading grader windrows it's because the grader is fine grading, they're not stripping topsoil. I don't think you will need a GPS grader unless you are fine grading for roads, parking lots or building pads. I think a dozer would be good for grading the site and helping maintain the pile if necessary, pushing the 623 if stuck, etc. Or a push cat if you're using 627s or TS14s. I don't know if one or two pans is enough to pay for a grader on the haul roads? If it is really farming (again why strip topsoil off a working farm?) why would it have to be fine graded? Grading for positive drainage should be enough, no? An experienced pan operator should be able to get it close, and clean up with a dozer.

coalroller · Dec 8, 2012

Jocasta said:
Hi,

We are currently completing a job and the contracting company have asked us to take 9inches of topsoil off the entire 100-150 acre property as they are redeveloping it. We have been looking around and can hire either an open bowl or 623H elevating scraper (both self propelled, single engines I believe) and are unsure which one would be best. Any opinion would help!!!

Its for a farming property and they've requested it be about 9inches off the top. Because it will have cows on it not houses it doesn't need to be perfect but it does need to be quick and efficient as we are paying by the hour for hire. Also, it is only black/sand topsoil not clay but it has rained like twice here in the past 6months and the ground is extremely dry (our garden has turned to sand due to water restrictions). We were leaning towards the elevating scraper but are a little concerned the ground will be too hard for a cut. we don't want to use a dozer if we don't have to.any tips on a scraper or how to go about the project in general would be really helpful.

thanks!
Aussie Chick

i have made bold the entire question that he is asking the only variables are soil condition, terrain, and how far are you hauling the top soil.
are you just making multiple stock piles, one large stock pile or using in for cut and fill grading.

Jocasta · Dec 16, 2012

Thank you all for your input. Apologies for the delay in replying, I have two jobs so my life is quite hectic and internet forums are not my no1 priority, theres nothing 'fishy' about that. Seriously, how is not reply fishy? What could I possibly be doing? Anyways, to answer the question that no-one has correctly guessed yet, the soil is being removed at the clients request because the property which will now be used as a commercial feedlot has been previously very poorly treated. It has large amounts of small debris including broken glass, small bits of wire and other items which would be dangerous to cattle. Hands up who wants a nice piece of glass in their steak sandwich? also cattle = money so every cow that dies from sceptacaemia caused by ingesting broken glass is lost money. Everyone understand? If you have any better suggestions for removing this debris, please feel free to share them, im all ears.
Thanks again for the responses, much appreciated.

Jocasta · Dec 16, 2012

the two options listed are the only available within a 200mile radius, those outside would prove costly due to transport back and forth. the soil will only be moving a maximum of 100yards, probably not even that, onto the neighbouring property to give us more time to dispose of it.

Jocasta · Dec 16, 2012

wow that sounds like a really good idea actually. we may try that. Thank you

Jocasta · Dec 16, 2012

oxbow, really? something fishy? i do apologise for doing other things rather than being surgically attached to online forums. what 'fishy' thing could i possibly be doing? stealing dirt to stockpile for myself or shafting someone out of money to do a job that is not required? considering the use of a scraper was AT THE CLIENTS REQUEST I cant see how im swindling him, and just because you cannot think of a reason why something is being done doesnt mean there isnt one. 'open-mindedness' would be a good word here. read the post above explaining the reasoning behind it, if you have a better approach, please let me know.

Oxbow · Dec 17, 2012

Jocasta, I apologize if you thought I suspected that you were doing something unethical in regard to your client. It was just unusual to ask advice and then not respond, especially when the scenario that you described was somewhat peculiar. I actually wondered if this was not a bit of a puzzle to see what others may come up with. Again, I apologize.

Now, you say that you only have to move the material perhaps a maximum of 100 yards to get it to the neighboring property, correct? So your 100 acre parcel is 300' wide by 2.75 miles long?

Typically one can move material cheaper by pushing with an appropriate sized dozer up to about 300'. You say a dozer is not readily available, but if there is a lot of debris and wire I would not be inclined to use an elevating scraper as the wire getting tangled in the chain could cause problems. In addition, the debris would cause risk to tires on either an open bowl or and elevating scraper.

Just some things to consider, and good luck with your project.

Jocasta · Dec 18, 2012

Oxbow, apologies if I sounded over zealous previously and thanks for your input. The property is square, so probably more than 100 but is bordered on three sides by our neighbouring property hence the easy access. Thanks again for your input, I'll give it some thought.

Buckethead · Dec 19, 2012

Jocasta said:
T Anyways, to answer the question that no-one has correctly guessed yet, the soil is being removed at the clients request because the property which will now be used as a commercial feedlot has been previously very poorly treated. It has large amounts of small debris including broken glass, small bits of wire and other items which would be dangerous to cattle. Hands up who wants a nice piece of glass in their steak sandwich? also cattle = money so every cow that dies from sceptacaemia caused by ingesting broken glass is lost money. Everyone understand?

Sorry if I seemed skeptical, I just didn't understand you. Makes perfect sense now that you've explained it.

coalroller · Dec 20, 2012

even at only 9 inches of cut a open bowl and a D6 could take care of this in no time only moving it a bit over 100 yards

Open Bowl VS elevating scraper for 9inch topsoil removal on 100acres

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