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Roughest 580ck ain't moving!

alrman

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The plot thickens......
By the looks of the flow control spool, the valve you have is the A38031 not the assumed A37546 (correct by serial number)....... so the gaskets to be used should be A38030 & A38029.

That is of course that the oil distrubution plate is also not correct as per serial number.
This would have been easier to confirm if you had the original gaskets.

BTW - I would usually fit those valve gaskets with no sealant on them at all, it makes them more reuser friendly. That blue stuff looks like RTV silicone, it is good stuff when used in the proper application, which is not control valves.
 

willie59

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Nice catch alrman, if the parts pages are to be trusted, that double notch in flow control spool on left in pic would be the A38031 valve body. :notworthy
 

packratc

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tennnessee
Frisky, No the photo may make it look that way but the splined shaft is probably 2 ft long and fits into a cast "tunnel" in the torque tube and to the transmission input shaft. I't's about 1 3/4 "round. It can't be put in there crooked. Hope this answers your question as I understand it. Thanks,Packratc
 

packratc

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Alrman, I'm not sure what part you're refering to as the "oil distribution plate". Can you clarify? Willie59, is the G46824 gasket for the later regulator valve body different than the one for the earlier regulator valve body? One more question: Do either of you think that the changes of gaskets, now that we suspect that my machine has the later valve body, can get reverse back in my life? Thanks for your help.
 

alrman

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I thought you already tried to run it with the A38030 & A38029? .... You can only try it Packrat :rolleyes:
The G46824 regulator gasket is common to all the models, thank goodness.
Is there a part number on the distribution plate by any chance?
 

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packratc

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I'll look for a part number on the distribution plate in a minute. I have the A38030 gasket in my hand but I need a photo of the A38029 gasket to identify it. I think Phil had photo of them in a long ago post. Since Chico is outside and on the payroll I don't have time to look through it all right now. If no one has it handy don't worry about it. I can find it tonight. I want to get it ordered before the weekend, if I need to, so I can have it in hand by Monday. Still no speculation as to whether this will fix my problem? Did you have the spring and ball bearing circled in the drawing for some specific purpose this time, Alrman? Thank you all! Packratc
 

packratc

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Well, as Alrman says, "the plot thickens". Maybe it gets lumpy now. Ya' know? This site is a lot of fun, even when it brings you bad news. And even when you do something or have to fess up to something that just makes you feel like an idiot. But, it realy doesn't me, 'cause I been this way all my life. Since Alrman asked me for a serial number on, I think, the baseplate, which I have yet to identify, I looked around a little bit and found a number right on top of this whole deal. I had cast it off as I thought it was a casting number, and it might be. But, I took a photo, which I'll try to include here, and we'll see what lumps that adds to the plot. Thank you all, Packratcphoto (82).JPG
 

alrman

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Still no speculation as to whether this will fix my problem? Did you have the spring and ball bearing circled in the drawing for some specific purpose this time, Alrman? Thank you all! Packratc

Sorry packrat, the detent ball & spring was circled for an earlier post, I reused the picture. Although the one in your photos does look a little rickety.
My speculation is probably best not shared with you right now, I want you to remain as positive as possible 'ol matey :rolleyes:

PS - I keep looking at that picture of that forward gear at the back of the shuttle, it just does not look like it is sitting parallel to the shaft. If you look at the circlip groove & the edge of the gear it don't look right. If you put a couple of prybars in there & prise the gear back towards the front of the machine, are you sure it won't square up & then have room for shims?
 
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willie59

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Packy, that A38032 number ain't gonna do you no good, that's the part number for the body casting itself, not the valve as an assembly. The A38032 body casting is "not sold separately" [NSS], so the number won't even show up in the parts book. I can't say for certain, but I'd wager alrman is correct in that your valve assembly is A38031.
 

packratc

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Alrman, I went back & looked at the pics I sent out and I agree it looks "cocked". As it's a gear and it the inside of it is grooved to fit on a grooved shaft I don't see how it can be crooked. However, I will put a couple of bars in there and "prise" back on it. I don 't mind the bad news about tearing this thing back down. If it needs it I want to get at it. It'll be a lot easier this time around. Thanks, Packratc
 

packratc

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Finally got the two new gaskets (A38030 & A38029) and put the shuttle/converter control valve back together. I think I've reached new heights. Hydraulic fluid came out of the air breather on top of the valve. But the good news is that it only happened when the control was in reverse. The wheels, of course, continued in the foward direction. I think tomorrow I'll check & make sure that the lines to the filter & cooler haven't been reversed. I also had almost 200 lbs of pressure which insured that the fluid flowed well out of the breather. I hope I can continue to bring forth both humor and pity to your realm of emotions. Packratc
 

willie59

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Hydraulic fluid came out of the air breather on top of the valve.


Packy, I do believe you have a situation that would baffle even the engineers who designed the thing. :D

I do hope you get your problem sorted out though. ;)
 

packratc

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Alrman, I've been taking sort of a break on this thing but plan to get back to it next week. I'm convinced that it's got to come back apart. I've been looking at an old post between Sam and Phil that seems like it was one of the last that Phil put on the site. Someone on there came up with the same problem of oil coming out of the breather but there was where the thread stopped. You were on the thread at the last. Do you have any idea where the rest of that thread picked up again, if it did? If you have any, give me some hints on what to look for when this baby comes back apart. I'm convinced that it went back together "too long" as there has to be a need for spacers on the out put end. Thanks, Packratc
 

alrman

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Not sure of the thread your talking about there packratc, as you know, phil is greatly missed & I'm just trying to help those suffering with "580ck/B - itis".

Usually when oil comes from a breather, it is because of a massive internal oil hemerage. The fact you have a loss of pressure in REV would indicate that to be your situation.
The loss of pressure during your "test C" is also a concern as there should always be pressure in neutral & slightly less (but the same) in FWD & REV.
You will have to open her up again & carry out a thorough forensic examination. Take a real good look at things as you pull each item apart - don't just dismantle & reassemble.
I am guessing a rubber seal on the reverse piston.
A good way to test the piston seals on the bench is to use a rubber tipped air nozzle & blow air into the oil galleries. The air pressure will be enough to lock up the packs & you should not hear any leaks.
Do you think you can you get some shims behind the shuttle now?
 

sleepyhollow

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Aug 19, 2012
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Hi guys, it was me who had the oil coming out of the breather. Here is what I found out. Hope it is helpful to you. In trying to resolve the problem I am dealing with, I seperated the shuttle control valve from the oil distribution plate. while doing this I apparently allowed the forward/reverse spindle to pull out alittle to far. Unknown to me at the time, the little detent ball (circled in the previous post) was pushed up behind the spool in the valve body. Not knowing this I put it all back together. When I started it up, I got the catistrophic oil hemorage mentioned earlier. Not to mention, I nearly had a hemorage myself!!!! Hope this info is helpful to you. If you also seperated these two parts, this may be exactly what happened to your 580. Also, with the detent ball up behind the spindle, you would not be able to put the shuttle in reverse.
 

packratc

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Thanks Alrman for your reply. Good advise. Sleepyhollow has come through with a reply like I had hoped he would. When I first put the valve back together I glued the gaskets and that helped keep the ball & spring in place. Have put it back together a couple of times since then and tried to keep it all together. Can't really safely day that I'm confident that the control valve couldn't have come out too far. It's something to look at first. Thanks Sleepyhollow. I'm still convinced that the whole thing will have to come apart. I'll do the "in housing" air test first, if possible. Apprectiate all the good advise. Packratc
 

packratc

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Well, with a little time off and some good whiskey to fortify us, we split the hoe back apart yesterday. Have learned a little bit and this time split it like a backhoe instead of the first time when we split it like a tractor, which we both had done before. We backed the rearend, steering assembly, torque tube, and fuel tank out from the frame rails and engine in a little less than three hours. We already had the fluids drained. Tomorrow we dig in and try to remember how to get the shuttle out. Packratc
 
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